Do you care about the chlorine and/or chloramine in the tap water?

 

According to my city's reporting, there's no chloramine added and the chlorine ranges from 0.04 PPM in the winter to 1.7 PPM during the summer. . .

So my setup will put in around 4 gallons of RO/DI water and 1 gallon of tap water per day. At the max level of 1.7ppm into 72 gallons: that produces a chlorine concentration of about 23.6 parts per BILLION . . . I'm not going to worry about it.

 

According to my city's reporting, there's no chloramine added and the chlorine ranges from 0.04 PPM in the winter to 1.7 PPM during the summer. . .

So my setup will put in 4 gallons of RO/DI water and 1 gallon of tap water per day. At the max level of 1.7ppm into 72 gallons: that produces a chlorine concentration of about 23.6 parts per BILLION . . . I'm not going to worry about it.

I'm not sure what concentration is dangerous. Here is one article claiming 0.003 ppm:

http://hendryutilities.com/docs/boxes/Chlorine_vs_Chloramine.htm

Chlorine at high concentrations is toxic to fish; at lower concentrations, it stresses fish by damaging their gills. Concentrations of as little as 0.2-0.3 ppm kill most fish fairly rapidly. To prevent stress, concentrations as low as 0.003 ppm may be required.

You are talking about a chlorine concentration in your tank of up to 0.022 ppm. This assumes that all the chlorine added on each day leaves the system within 24 hours and does not accumulate. If the chlorine were to last for 72 hours, you are talking about something like 0.045 ppm.

I have no idea if that value is safe, but neither do you. I would suggest more research.

Here is another article:

http://www.h2ou.com/h2wtrqual.htm

Effects of chlorine on fish and aquatic life

The table shows how chlorine affects fish and aquatic organisms. It is important to realize chlorine becomes more toxic as the pH level of the water drops. And it becomes even more toxic when it is combined with other toxic substances such as cyanides, phenols and ammonia.

Phenols are organic chemicals produced when coal and wood are distilled and when oil is refined. Phenols are found in a number of products—from organic wastes to sheep dip. Although phenols are very toxic, dilute solutions of a phenol (carbolic acid) are used as a disinfectant.

Table 3. Effects of chlorine on fish and aquatic organisms
Total chlorine (in mg/L) Effect
0.006 Kills trout fry in two days.
0.01 Recommended maximum for all fish and aquatic life.
0.01 Kills Chinook Salmon and Coho Salmon.
0.01-0.05 Oysters have difficulty pumping water through their bodies.
0.02 Maximum Brook and Brown Trout can withstand.
0.05 Maximum amount that can be tolerated by young Pacific Salmon in the ocean.
0.1 Kills most marine plankton.
0.25 Only the hardiest fish can survive.
0.37 Maximum fish can tolerate.
1.0 Kills oysters.

Your value of possibly 0.045 ppm seems dangerous if the above values are to be believed.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ja...nts +chlorine +reduce&pg=PA458#v=onepage&q=mud plants +chlorine +reduce&f=false

This is a handbook for public water works; there's a discussion on page 458 that says chlorine is not effective when it comes in contact with "mud, decayed vegetation, or other suspended organic debris." Since my planted tank is loaded with that stuff, I'm going to settle my case that chlorine, at very low levels is not worth worrying about.

 

You really have no data to base that decision on. The chlorine will also come in contact with your fish's gills. The above charts claim that the level that will be in your tank is dangerous.

I'd suggest that you track it. There are simple test kits that will show you the level in your tank.

I wish you luck with your system. I'm sure it will be very cool when finished. However, the weight of evidence definitely seems to be against having a chlorine concentration as high as yours might be. You are thinking that the chlorine will be neutralized quickly in your tank and that it won't be a problem. That should be easy to test.

Again, good luck.

p.s. I hope your water is not muddy and full of decaying vegetable matter.

 

You're totally right on the math . . . my numbers are really 'squishy' because I just don't know what blend ratio I need to hit 5-7deg general hardness . . .

As for the issue of chlorine; I think that is a minor but valid concern. I'm going to tweak the plumbing setup slightly. Now all the water entering the tank will have passed through a carbon filter first and should be plenty safe.

 

AC will certainly help and change them often.

I'd add a float switch in tank or in a sump. I've done this set up for 2 client's.
The sump has an overflow, so the water goes out there instead of the tank, keeps more junk out of the tank. I have an over flow in the tank also JUST in case something clogs also.

 

+1, wire the float switch to control the solenoid, instead of on a timer.

use the timer on a pump that drain the water out of the sump or main tank, of course, the pump has another float switch once the desire drain level reach, the pump will stop.

 

And my first box showed up today. No word on the second rotameter. . . The pictures and updates are in the original thread.

 

Ok, I couldn't wait, I hooked-up my rig and worked around the missing component. I got it set to 7deg general hardness by running the RO circuit at 100% and throttling the tap water to 1.5 gallons per hour. I tested for chlorine and that is at 0.0 PPM (pictures in first post). I'm thrilled!! Everything ran for about 3 hours this evening: it worked like a charm! Even the little bit of surface scum in the tank all went down the drain. . . . to quote charlie: "Duh, WINNING"

The only discovery I made was that I'll need to upgrade my heater. I was hoping my 300w would be able to keep up with the inflow of 50deg water, it mostly did, but could use a little help. Going forward, the water change timer is programmed to run 1 hour every day between 7-8pm. If there's a problem (flooding) I'm most likely going to hear/ notice it. I'm also going to dial back the hardness a little and try to hit 5dGH instead of 7. Regardless, it's a huge improvement over the 16+dGH water that I would ordinarily use.


About using a float valve / automatic drain . . . that was the whole point of this build. I wanted to do an automatic water change system without using those. I really like things that are "irreducibly complex;" of all the water changing systems, I assert mine is the most simple, elegant, and reliable!

Now as per TPT.net protocol: Everyone will pile on with how I'm an idiot and they have a better system j/k

 

Now as per TPT.net protocol: Everyone will pile on with how I'm an idiot and they have a better system j/k

Well, one wet floor later...........is not the best way to learn.
Just make sure/certain nothing can get clog those overflow drain, if so, things will not end well, I can see a few good sized leaves doing that.

 

It is finished . . .

Moved update to post #1

 

Where is the original thread with the final pictures??? I don't find it! Thanks!

 

It's picture #2 on the very first thread Re-posted here, this is what the final package looks like. I only omitted the external plumbing: 1 line going to the tank and 1 line going to the drain. The water supply line is visible on the front right. Then it hangs on the wall via the bracket on top.

 

Update

Moved update to post #1.

 

moved update to post #1

 

so a full RO DI water change with tap water is better than just the RO DI alone? I do about 30% water change weekly.

 

The discussions can be found on other threads, but plants and fish both need some calcium and magnesium in the water. If you use 100% RO water, your critters will be stressed (and possibly killed) from lack of minerals.

Most fish are comfortable with 3-10 degrees general hardness. (with the obvious exception of rift lake cichlids, that swim in liquid rock). Do a little research and find out what experts say for your particular critters.

R.O. top-off is fine, if you're just replacing evaporated water, but IMHO water changes should always be done with blended water.

 

Love the ideas, but rather costly to implement. (I'm guilty of worse, much worse...) Great thread! Two observations:

1. It looks to me that the blend ratio is predicated on constant input pressure from both RO and tap lines. RO line is "wide open" and tap is controlled by a physical valve orifice size, right? So as your RO membrane ages and your RO output is reduced, your blend ratio will alter over time slightly, right? And in my case I'm on a well pump so my tap water pressure fluctuates with the bladder. Just some points to think about for others considering this setup.
2. Your water change is not actually as much as you think, because the overflow water exiting the tank is not pure used water but a blend of new and used water.

 

Update moved to post #1

 

Hey great job. This is something I've thought about incorporating on all my tanks. I plan on including an emergency overflow down to a drain at the top of the tanks. Also I will include an alarm switch in the drain and shut off switch on the input side. Where I live the water dept is chloromine crazy. Therefore I will also need a tank where I can pretreat the water by adding sodium thiosulphate and additional filtering through carbon. I'm a veteran of many water spills due to blocked drains so that's my concern with flooding. As Tom said those big leaves are killer on house floors.