Big question! Do we take our kids in to be treated for ringworms because lots of kids have ringworms or do we wait and see if they need treatment?
The point of time in QT is to see what's up with new fish. Most meds walk a fine line between killing the bad stuff as well as the good stuff, so I don't treat until I see what and why.

 

Hi nxreliant1864,

I have known Cory personally for about 7 years. He is an active member of our local aquarium club, and about four years ago started Aquarium Co-op north of Seattle. I have been to his store many times, although it is 20 miles each way, he sells quality, healthy fish at reasonable prices. As for dosing meds when adding new fish I think that is an individual decision. If I purchase fish from another fish club member, go to there home and see the condition of their tanks and the health of their fish then I might not medicate. If I am purchasing fish at a LFS (or worse yet Petco or Petsmart - which I don't do) I would certainly consider quarantine and medication.

My personal experience is this, last Thanksgiving I had a 75 gallon tank filled with beautiful Melanotaenia boesemani 'Lake Anjiko' (Boesmani Rainbowfish) that I had raised from eggs that I received from Gary Lange, the rainbowfish explorer, collector, and breeder. These weren't fish from an Asian fish farm, these were F3 generation from fish collected in the wild and were almost 2years old and just fantastic, they had just started breeding. I lost a couple of Otos in that tank and the diatoms (brown algae) were starting to accumulate so I went to a LFS (not Cory's) and purchased a couple of Otos. Long story short; although the aquarium I purchased them out of looked fine the fish must have had something. Within 3 weeks all 18 of the adult Melanotaenia boesemani 'Lake Anjiko' were dead. To me the fish were priceless; needless to say I was devastated. I didn't quarantine, and I didn't medicate and it cost me dearly......lesson learned.

75 Gallon with Melanotaenia boesemani 'Lake Anjiko'

 

Oh noooo. That's terrible. I completely understand, after that experience I'd be cautious too.

I guess I have to think about it some more. I still have plenty of time. I'm just starting to plant today and I'm setting up a quarantine tank tomorrow. They'll both be running a while long before I make my first purchase. Thanks everyone and nice to meet you all. ;-)

 

It depends on the situation, but I prefer quarantine and observation. Sometime, if I'm purchasing a fish that is well know to come in with diseases (wild caught catfish species for example), then I might pre-medicate for something I'm sure they're going to have.

 

I'm not one to medicate in the name of simply doing so. There is a time and a place for it.

That being said, @Seattle_Aquarist has a point. I have never lost a tank of fish due to putting fish from questionable places in my tanks, but I have noticed something else along those lines.

When I buy fish from clean, healthy stores, the fish live a long time and thrive. In my case I use my BH tetras as a example. They turned 6-years old this year. On the other hand, I struggle with keeping fish from places like Pet Co around for a year. So far I have a ram and one White Skirt tetra that has made it past the 1 year mark. I consider this a accomplishment.

Yesterday hubby and I made the trip to my healthy fish store. The problem is the property has been sold and my healthy LFS that I've depended on for well over 10 years no longer exists. We stopped by the local Chamber of Commerce to see if they had just moved. There were no records found and later I found a article online explaining the details of what happened.

From there we went to two different privately owned pet stores. The first store we went to had layers of dead feeder goldfish in their feeder tank stuck to the sponge filter in that tank. The rest of the tanks were murky and horrible. Second store wasn't much better. Full grown tinfoil barbs stuck in a 10-gallon that hadn't seen a water change in a few weeks and a dying parrot fish in yet another. Meanwhile, there was a clean 150 gallon with nothing in it.

After the 3 hour journey, we came home and called a friend that is in the hobby. He keeps cichlids, but is just as anal about water quality and tank health as I am. If anybody knew where to get fish, he would know. He gave us a recommendation which is over a hour away. We'll be checking the place out this weekend. I probably won't come home with fish, but I've been told that they have plants galore, so I'll probably come home with some of those.

My days of settling with my tanks and the health of the fish in my tanks are over. I'll continue to buy emersed plants from places like Pet Co, but no more fish. It is not worth it even if White Skirts are a couple of bucks. If I can't get healthy fish that are taken care of, I'm not buying any more. The ones I have I'll keep until they are gone and that will be it. It will be time to pack up the tanks and call it a experience.

 

That's my biggest fear in NYC. So many crappy fish stores with dead fish everywhere. It's not easy bc to them it's money and not a passion.

 

First all, its CO-OP not Coop and secondly the store is a fraud and I will tell you why.

He claims to be a CO-Op which is is absolutely not.

let me give you an example of a real Co-OP.

This frontier company which I buy my pizza seasoning from is a REAL CO-OP

When you have CO-OP, it means your suppliers are like Co-owners in the company.
For example, if you had a supermarket in which the farmers and suppliers all had ownership in the company.

Cory own 100% of that fish store. His customers are not CO-owners, his suppliers are not Co-owners, his employees are not Co-owners, his fish are not CO-owners, no one is a Co-owner.

Its like calling yourself a charity but then pocketing all the money for yourself.

He is trying to reap the benefits of a Co-op without being a CO-OP.

Its like that scandle when subway 12-inch subs were like only 10-inches and they said " 12-inch sub is just a generic name we call our large subs, not a unit of measurement" Imaging if a pawn shop save someone 12-oz cold coin that was only 10oz and said " 12oz is just what I call my 10oz gold coin" or the people on Ebay in the 90's that would sell you a photograph of whatever they claim to be selling.

You buy a car, you received a picture of a car. If you buy a cell phone, you got a picture of a cell phone,etc...

At a minimum, he should have a disclaimer saying " Fake Co-Op" , " Bogus Co-op" , " not a real Co-op" ,etc..

Just in case you wanted to know.

 

Don't you think that reaction is a bit unwarranted for what is essentially a grammar mistake?

 

I am not a grammar Nazi, trust me.

99.999% of that was claiming to be a CO-OP without being a CO-OP is dishonest. Like saying that the name of your company is " Help the vets charity" without helping the vets or being a charity.

He should change his name or add a disclaimer that he is not a CO-OP otherwise its just deception. He is doing it for a reason which is to attract the type of people who shop at certain types of stores, farmers markets, etc..

That is why I won't be giving him my business or trusting his advice.

I don't care about the grammar.

 

Quarantine EVERYTHING, plants, fish, decorations, subrstrate, wood, etc. It'll save you headaches down the road. Have I lost fish the occasional fish from my display tanks, sure, who hasn't? some jump, some get old, etc. but I have never introduced anything into my tanks that wiped out the whole thing. Why? they died while in qt, from whatever ailment they came in with, before it got into my displays.

On the medication front. I'm a yes and no kind of person. With livestock, I observe and treat if needed. I'd rather let the fishes own immune system battle it out first, rather than potentially making something worse. However plants get an alum dip for 2 days, always, I don't want snails, and it seems to take care of anything coming in on wild collected plants as well. Also driftwood, gets boiled and soaked, prior to being introduced. this there's no harm in doing a proactive "treatment"

 

In one of Cory's YT videos he explained the premise for the name Co-op and stated that in hindsight that may have not been the appropriate name to use. Also he is not 100% owner as he has mentioned that he has a silent partner. Yes he does want to make money and has stated so but in essence this is a business and his job and like the majority of the population we work in some fashion to make a living.

It hasn't been mentioned but the treatment he uses is General Cure, Ich-X and Erythromycin. This med cocktail is an attempt to treat the majority of issues (both external and internal) a fish may be infected with. You can watch his YT videos on Quarantine as he explains why this combination works for him. I don't follow this exact recipe but after losing over 20 tetras after only doing a short quarantine period I now treat with General Cure and have increased my quarantine period to > 1 month. If any problem is visible to the eye I will adjust my treatment accordingly.

 

What he is doing is extremely dishonest. Also, having a silent partner does not make you a CO-OP. He is trying to get the farmer's market crowd. CO-OP products that I purchase have the farmers as CO-owners of the company that makes the seasoning.

If you want to see a real CO-OP, look at this company

https://www.frontiercoop.com/?___SID=U

This is a legit CO-OP, not a fake one.

P.S. They make some darn good pizza seasoning if you are interested.

What is a Co-op?

Frontier Co-op has been a member-owned cooperative supporting natural living since 1976 — owned by stores and other organizations that buy and sell our products. We feel the insights and values we gain from this special relationship with our owners are at the heart of our success.
In most ways, cooperatives are like other businesses. Their facilities and equipment are much like those of their competitors and, to be successful, the businesses must be run well. Co-ops are even incorporated in most cases, filing papers with the state as a specially structured corporation. There are bylaws and other necessary legal papers. There is a board of directors that sets policy and oversees the management that runs the day-to-day operations.

The difference

But co-ops are different from other businesses in that they are owned and controlled (through the election of a Board) by members who have direct participation in the business. There are many types of co-ops, but often the participation is as a customer of the co-op. This is the case with Frontier Co-op. We’re owned, as we have been from the beginning, by our wholesale customers — the stores and other organizations that buy and resell our products. These customers provide the capital for the business to operate, take responsibility as member/owners through an elected Board of Directors and share the co-op’s earnings.

Good for business

This special relationship of ownership is at the heart of our success. We have unique insight into natural products and the people who buy them by having our member/owners in direct contact with the consumers of the products. And our co-op structure has fostered honest, responsible business practices that are increasingly valued in the marketplace.

Co-ops operate in the shared interests of their members — and that extends beyond financial interests to the underlying values of the members. We were founded amid the idealism about food, the environment and social justice of the 1970s “co-op movement.” Today, those founding values still prevail in our members and in the way we do business — and people are shopping for them.

Good for you

You care about those same values — you want high quality products that are produced with respect for the environment and the people who grow and manufacture them. Our members are collectively leaders in wholesome food, environmental stewardship and social responsibility — and the business they own is a leader in those areas as well.

The environmental and social responsibility, openness, integrity and fairness that you want in your products are available from Frontier Co-op — in large part, because we’re a co-op.

In keeping with the values of Frontier Co-op members, we've prioritized the quality of our products, provide full disclosure of ingredients, have developed new organic sources and have made our operations more sustainable. And we've made it our business to be a helpful participant in the communities our co-op is a part of — whether it's digging wells for villagers in Madagascar and Sri Lanka or clearing trash from a roadside ditch here in Iowa.

Co-op commitment

It's not that we couldn't or wouldn't do such things if we were individually owned or a traditional corporation, but being cooperatively owned by tens of thousands of members advocating for doing the right thing has definitely reinforced our values and actions. We're a different business in a different world than when we started in 1976, but Frontier Co-op's commitment to our founding values — and those of our members — remains strong.

https://www.frontiercoop.com/community/about/what-is-a-coop

 

One cannot throw a brick without hitting some type of dishonesty in this hobby. The trick is seeing past the BS and ignoring the virtual brow beatings if one doesn't step in line. It is rather amusing how much arm-flailing occurs over the stupidest of things.

 

I concur

 

Wasn't even paying attention to the whole CO-OP thing. I was just curious whether anyone here has or is currently using this method, pros and cons, stuff like that.
Any recommendations on obtaining healthy livestock in NYC?

 

Basically due to Cory there are a number of youtuber's who follow and believe in his quarantine procedures. His reasoning which I feel is very sensible is why not spend a few $ on meds instead of taking a chance of losing a lot of $$$ if your fish die. Also IMO he is doing a service by pre-treating his store fish for the average hobbyist who normally don't quarantine and would introduce their new fish directly into their aquarium.

I use General Cure as it contains both metronidazole and praziquantel which are meds that can be bought separately and treats internal parasites and also acts as a de-wormer which are issues that you cannot visibly see. If there are visible signs (e.g. ich, fungus, wounds) then I will add other meds to treat these conditions. Since I quarantine for 1 month I feel these external conditions should appear within this time frame. Just want to add that I rationalize that internal parasites and worms could manifest itself for awhile before I would notice a problem so I elect to pre-treat as a precaution while I should be able to see the external problems at onset and I can treat immediately.

 

Rachel O'Leary (msjinkzd.com) is a great vendor in York, PA. Shipping is very reasonable (never more than $30 even for huge orders) to the NJ/NY area.

 

Funny coincidence, Rachel O'Leary is our next speaker at GSAS on June 13th, doiing a tal on Nano fish.

 

Thanks I will take a look.

 

Thanks for your input guys.
Is there any special meds for cherry shrimps? I know some fish treatment is bad for them but how about the General cure bad stuff?

 

If you go to Rachel O'Leary's You Tube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi0_5nJ6u7FNAmEkKJqmmzQ?&ab_channel=RachelO'leary she has at least one video about shrimp, the problems they can come with and how to deal with them. She also has videos about meds and other issues that fish come with it. I just rolled out of bed and don't have time to look for them. I have to leave in less than a hour.

Rachel has become one of my all-time favorites when it comes to this hobby and any advice I've taken from her has never gone bad. She works hard, is always continuing her education, she practices what she preaches, ect...

 

Hard to tell just from his videos but Cory does seem to be an authentic fish enthusiast who's made his passion his business. It's not an an easy thing to do in a world of internet sales, brick and mortar stores are becoming the exception nowadays, and I'm all for them.

Our LFS primarily sells cigarettes and the pet supplies are a small portion of their business. I've known of this business since living in another city, where they had their first store and everyone avoided buying fish from them. Caveat Emptor, and bring your most critical eye to any LFS that you haven't visited before.

 

Thanks I will watch her videos.

 

I know the two situations are vastly different but I want to chime in with my experience as a wildlife rehabilitator.

When I'm doing intakes for wild animal patients, I am focused on having the animals stay with me as little as possible for treatment. In addition, there are multiple patients with us at once at the hospital and to prevent an epidemic, we need to do prophylaxis treatment. While I could do testing on each individual for the various diseases I treat with prophylaxis, it's a given that most come in with some background level of parasites that could potentially kill them during treatment at the hospital.

That said, as an aquarist, I have a choice to determine where my Flora and fauna are coming from, which helps keep disease at bay.

I see both options - QT and prophylaxis - as valid methods for controlling disease. However we need to keep in mind cost. If I invest in higher quality stock, there's a lower chance of disease taking hold, thus less likelihood to use prophylaxis/QT. Likewise if I buy from Petco or PetSmart, I'm going to QT and maybe even medicate as a preventative measure.

My two cents.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

Good points!

Anyone have good or bad experiences buying fish from private sellers?

 

Nothing but good results from local club sales/auctions , and via listings in National organization bulletins ( like the AKA , ACA , &c). Locally , you get to talk to the seller , and via the Nat'l clubs , there's a code of ethics that's followed . If you're in NYC , check out the Brooklyn Aquarium Society , and the Greater City Aquarium Society .

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm really digging Rachel O'leary's YouTube videos. She's amazing.
I just binged watched a ton of them.

 

I'm really digging Rachel O'leary's YouTube videos. She's amazing.
I just binged watched a ton of them.

I'm glad to here that you're enjoying them. She's a smart lady. We need more of her in the hobby.

 

I know. I feel like I've met her before or at the very least have seen her. I don't know why but she seems familiar.
I do work at the airport and she says she comes by to pick up fish. Maybe that's how. Hmm.
Nevertheless I love her informative video and I think I will purchase my first batch from her soon.

 

I think if you really wanted to support true co-ops, you would do enough research in the vendor you are thinking of buying from to realize if they are truly co-op or not. If you didn't do this research and bought solely off of name, you may really care about co-op values and fairness, but only surperficially do anything about supporting them anyways.

The people who really care take time in doing research to figure out where their money is going. Same goes for fish keeping, or anything else for that matter.

 

I think my original post was completely confused. My intention was asking about Cory's method in medicating and quarantining his fish nothing to do with his company's name or the fact that he isn't a true "co-op."
That being said if that's your thing than I completely support it, better for the fish and better for the co-op family. But my original post was redirected from its main purpose/question.

 

Keep in mind that Cory's talking about quarantining fish that generally have spent a week being shipped from an importer. And receiving hundreds at a time. So he's more likely to run into parasites and diseases, and he loses a bunch more fish and money than I do if something slips through.

Rachel O'Leary has a video about her quarantine process and she is quite serious about it too. But then she's dealing with imported fish. When I bought some fish from her, I didn't quarantine them at all since they'd already spent a month in her quarantine and only a day in shipping.

When I buy locally, I personally do a two-phase quarantine: first I let the fish stay at the store for 2-3 weeks (and the store is usually Petsmart, so often some of them die) then I buy healthy-looking survivors and quarantine them for a week's observation here. Works for me so far...

Also, I care about whether his store is a real Co-op exactly as much as I care whether the Burger King is an actual monarch.

 

Lol
I watched her videos on her quarantine process. Quite vigorous.
Especially the shrimp. I just bought some TC plants from her, can't wait to plant them. Thereafter I will order the fish, in batches, periodically. Don't wanna go too quickly. I'm very close to her so the overnight shipping is ideal especially for the fish.
I think I will visit her one day and take a look for myself. Quite a collection.
Thanks guys for all the advice and comments. Much appreciated.

Adam