Hello,

I don't think your gh and kh are the problem. I believe mine are higher, and neos thrive in my water. Someone more experienced than I am may have a different idea, but I suspect the problem is related to the age of your tank. I know I've struggled keeping shrimp alive in tanks that haven't been running for at least 60 days. However, that's been when introducing more shrimp to smaller tanks than your situation, so I wouldn't be surprised if something else is going on.

I've never used CO2, but I've seen reports of shrimp struggling with it, so that's another possibility.

 

How did you cycle your tank? Be specific.

Temp: 73 (consistent with heater)

Shrimp are a cool water species, so no heater is necessary. I realize you have fish in the tank but keep this in mind for future reference. 73 is warm for shrimp.

C02 yes, c02 runs 7 hours a day in conjunction with lights. When the c02 is not running an air stone is running.

This is half the problem.

1 scarlet badis

One of the most ruthless hunters you could keep in a tank with shrimp.

11 ember tetra
4 CPD
5 pygmy cory

All of these (all fish) will also impact shrimp. They'll hunt, harass, kill, eat, you name it.

Around day 4 i noticed all of the shrimp congregated at the highest point of the tank.

This is a major red flag that you need to cut CO2 way down if you want to keep shrimp. Contrary to what some YouTubers claim, they are not as hardy with CO2 as fish. Most experienced shrimpers don't keep them in CO2 tanks.

Water parameters were fine

What were the water parameters?

had white band of death

What are you feeding your shrimp? How much? How often?

I realize my TDS is high. Is that the culprit in all of this?

It's not high. TDS = Total Dissolved Solids. That's the makeup of your kH and gH. You can't reduce TDS without impacting those two things and that's not something you should be doing in this case.

I know my GH and KH are not ideal either.

? They're fine.

I added an API water softener pillow to my filter last week.

Remove this. Yes, really. Don't try to chase water parameters. Focus on stability instead.

i’m unsure what else I can do about the TDS

Nothing.

...

Have you dosed this tank with any sort of medication? Are you using fertilizer? What else can you tell us?

The long and short of it is your tank was not prepared well for shrimp. On top of that, you're using more CO2 than they can tolerate, there are likely small ammonia spikes that are problematic because the tank isn't mature, their diet probably isn't ideal (too protein-heavy), temperature is a bit too warm and they're being harassed and hunted by your fish because there's really not enough cover for them. A perfect storm.

 

thank you for the detailed response! This makes me feel a lot better knowing more of what could be going on.

-How did you cycle your tank? Be specific.

I used the dark start method. I put down my substrate (Tropica capped with sand) and hardscape (seiryu stone and a piece of driftwood), filled the tank, added Seachem Prime and API Quick Start, and let the filter (fluval 207) run for 31 days with no light or natural/ambient light from windows. At 22 days my parameters tested at:

ph 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10

i waited an additional 9 days before draining and planting the tank. Two days after that I added my first fish, and 8 days later introduced the shrimp.

-Shrimp are a cool water species, so no heater is necessary. I realize you have fish in the tank but keep this in mind for future reference. 73 is warm for shrimp.

i am aware they don’t need a heater and my other healthy shrimp tank does not use one. In my weeks of researching neocardina i found multiple sources saying low 70s would be fine, and several even stating 72-73 was ideal for neocardina breeding conditions. I am NOT undermining your statement, i trust and believe you! Just pointing out my confusion.

-One of the most ruthless hunters you could keep in a tank with shrimp. All of these (all fish) will also impact shrimp. They'll hunt, harass, kill, eat, you name it.

All my research said these nano fish would only hunt and kill shrimplets. I am not trying to breed these shrimp or have a huge colony, so I assumed introducing adult shrimp would not be a problem. I hear what you are saying and understand nature will be nature and despite countless examples of shrimp coexisting with these fish, every fish is different and my tank may be an exception. I will certainly reconsider keeping neo’s in this tank.

-This is a major red flag that you need to cut CO2 way down if you want to keep shrimp. Contrary to what some YouTubers claim, they are not as hardy with CO2 as fish. Most experienced shrimpers don't keep them in CO2 tanks.

My c02 runs very low, as you can see in my blueish drop checker. I need to check the exact bubble per second but it’s under 1 bubble per second. I am happy to cut it off completely and see if the shrimp recover, before completely moving the shrimp out. Thank you for the info, i had no idea c02 could be a problem with neocardina.

-What were the water parameters?

That day the parameters read:

Ph 7.4
Nitrate 10
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Gh 17
Kh 9

This is when I decided to add the water softening pillow, the GH seemed too high.

-What are you feeding your shrimp? How much? How often?

I have been struggling here and should have mentioned more in my original post. My tank has an abundance of biofilm, the driftwood is visibly covered and I have observed as the shrimp have cleaned it up considerably. I have dosed Bacter Ae twice since introducing the shrimp. Regrettably I did not record an exact amount. I have a glass feeding dish which I have added Hikari Shrimp Cuisine and Shrimpy Business Snowflake food to, alternating, every other day since introducing the shrimp. Not once have they touched or even approached the food. I (probably naively) assumed they were too busy with the biofilm. I have yet to introduce blanched veggies but I feel like I should try that next?

-Remove this. Yes, really. Don't try to chase water parameters. Focus on stability instead.

I will remove it this evening. It has lost it’s charge anyway, and didn’t seem to make a huge difference.

-Have you dosed this tank with any sort of medication? Are you using fertilizer? What else can you tell us?

negative on medication. I dosed once with Easy Green the day I planted the tank. I have not dosed fertilizer since introducing livestock.

-The long and short of it is your tank was not prepared well for shrimp. On top of that, you're using more CO2 than they can tolerate, there are likely small ammonia spikes that are problematic because the tank isn't mature, their diet probably isn't ideal (too protein-heavy), temperature is a bit too warm and they're being harassed and hunted by your fish because there's really not enough cover for them. A perfect storm.

Understood. I do feel like my tank has an abundance of cover. I worry sometimes that it has TOO much cover as I cannot see any of my livestock most of the time (i realize this is a misnomer and there is probably no such thing as too much cover, i just selfishly like to see my fish). As I stated above I don’t think the shrimp’s diet is protein heavy as I have not observed them eat anything besides biofilm (which is probably part of the issue!) ammonia spikes are correct, since starting the tank i have observed .25 ammonia readings weekly which I follow with a water change that seems to bring it back to zero. I am realizing/assuming my tank must not be cycled enough, and I regret adding livestock. There is so much misinformation on the internet (even on this forum, which has been my number one resource in researching these shrimp) and I should have been more patient.

 

Upon some more searching, i am struggling to find any source stating 73 is too high for neocardina. Almost everything I can find says 72-73 is the low end, and while they can survive down to 65 they sometimes thrive and breed more in the upper 70s. I’m confused!

 

They can survive in temperatures from 90° to down near freezing, but of course they won't thrive in the whole range. As I understand it, higher temperatures accelerate their life cycle, so in warmer water they will breed younger, grow faster, but also die earlier. @somewhatshocked can correct me if this is wrong, but they should be okay at 73°. Neos don't need a heater, but that doesn't mean you can't have a heater in the tank.

Also, you mentioned Bacter AE above. I haven't tried it, but while some people swear by it, others say using it according to the directions killed every shrimp in their tank.

 

I used the dark start method. I put down my substrate (Tropica capped with sand) and hardscape (seiryu stone and a piece of driftwood), filled the tank, added Seachem Prime and API Quick Start, and let the filter (fluval 207) run for 31 days with no light or natural/ambient light from windows.

Since your tank likely didn't maintain a steady concentration of ammonia for the entire duration of the 'cycle', it couldn't process all of the ammonia from your livestock from day one. That's probably not as big of a deal with fish but it's maybe the biggest deal when it comes to shrimp, unfortunately. So make sure you're using Prime to neutralize ammonia in your tank on a regular basis until this is ironed out.

i waited an additional 9 days before draining and planting the tank

During those 9 days without ammonia dosing, beneficial bacteria died off in the tank and had to rebound once livestock moved in (ammonia source) to feed the bacteria.

i am aware they don’t need a heater and my other healthy shrimp tank does not use one. In my weeks of researching neocardina i found multiple sources saying low 70s would be fine, and several even stating 72-73 was ideal for neocardina breeding conditions. I am NOT undermining your statement, i trust and believe you! Just pointing out my confusion.

@ProudPapa hit the nail on the head above. Low 70s are fine. 72-73 is fine. It's just not ideal. Warmer water not only speeds up their entire lifecycle but it can lead to molting problems because of that increased rate of growth. There also seem to be more pathogens in warmer water that most dwarf shrimp species we keep can't fight off too well. Kind of the same principle of new pathogens becoming present in the Gulf and Atlantic with warming ocean temperatures from global climate change. (There've been a few recent news stories about it on major networks and in a few publications.)

Ideally, after more than 30 years of shrimping, I keep my Neos below 70F. I find they live exceptionally longer lives in those temps - in some cases 2-3 times longer than Neos kept in ~78F water.

Temperature stability also isn't that important with them. It's natural for their water to cool off in the evening and get warmer in the daytime. Some of my tanks in winter drop 10+ degrees each night.

All my research said these nano fish would only hunt and kill shrimplets.

They're more able to hunt and devour shrimplets for sure. But even the tiniest Boraras brigittae or male Endler can harass and torture a shrimp 3-4 times its size. There's unfortunately no such thing as a shrimp-safe fish. Only safe-ish. And that can greatly vary from fish to fish. Some pay them little mind and some can be wild little monsters.

This can all vary, of course. I've seen tiny Boraras harm and kill Amano Shrimp easily 3-4 times their size. And I've also seen Amanos catch and eat tiny fish - rare, but it's happened. Nature is a tricky beast.

My c02 runs very low, as you can see in my blueish drop checker.

It can sometimes take a month or more to acclimate shrimp to CO2. Sometimes they never get acclimated. Slowly increasing concentration over the course of several weeks can help. Granted, I've had shrimp go from no CO2 to loads of it with little issue but that's not always the case.

Younger shrimp are generally more able to adjust to CO2 than full adults.

I need to check the exact bubble per second but it’s under 1 bubble per second.

One thing to keep in mind is that bubbles per second is only a measure for your system. It won't be the same for mine or even your neighbor's tank. Variables like temperature, elevation, barometric pressure, all that impact what's in each bubble.

Gh 17
Kh 9

This is when I decided to add the water softening pillow, the GH seemed too high.

Eh, the gH is a little high but it's not terrible. Once you get your parameters stabilized and you're sure your tank is completely cycled, then it should be easier for you. Your tank is small enough that you could mix your tap water with a bit of distilled to cut the kH and gH down to where you want them. Though, you really don't have to use much. And once that's set, you'll only need a bit of distilled each week for your weekly water change. If you buy distilled water in 5gal containers, that should last you for a good while.

That kH will probably irk a lot of hardcore plant enthusiasts, as not all plants can tolerate hard water. But you should be fine. Stability will matter more to your tank than almost anything else.

I have added Hikari Shrimp Cuisine and Shrimpy Business Snowflake food to, alternating, every other day since introducing the shrimp. Not once have they touched or even approached the food.

If they aren't eating what you're offering, they're not hungry. They'll eventually come around.

That diet is a bit protein heavy or protein-forward. If I were you, I'd make Shrimp Cuisine a treat food - maybe offer it only once every 2-3 weeks. Add some other foods to your shrimp feeding rotation. I like to use things like spinach, kale, zucchini, nettle in addition to other foods. Organic spinach is the easiest because you can roll it up into little pea-sized balls and store them in the freezer. Then just toss one in the tank when it's time to feed, no blanching necessary. Alternate the type of feed you're offering them with each feeding. Maybe feed every 3-4 days (if this were a shrimp-only tank, every 2-3 days but feeding fish means they have access to other stuff frequently) and only what they can finish within an hour, removing any leftovers. Or just have a ton of snails so you have to fight them off in order to make room for your shrimp to feed - ha.

I do feel like my tank has an abundance of cover.

It's plenty for fish but shrimp need absolutely tons of hiding space. Lots of moss would make things much nicer for them - even if you hide it behind your existing scape. Maybe even a tiny PVC tube or ceramic tube that you can disguise and hide behind things.

i have observed .25 ammonia readings weekly

If your tap water contains chloramines, that could account for those regular spikes after water changes. Dosing extra Prime can help with that until the nitrifying bacteria can catch up. But it can also be because the tank just isn't 'ready' yet.

I have dosed Bacter Ae twice
...
My understanding is that it helps to create new biofilm

The horror stories are unfortunately legit. Dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people show up here having issues with it and it's always the same thing. It's essentially a livestock probiotic powder and can wreak havoc on a shrimp tank even in super-small doses. It also tends to zap the tank's oxygenation pretty quickly.

I promise it's no better at encouraging biofilm growth than anything you're already doing with your tank. The fact that you feed your critters, conduct water changes and generally make sure it's running well is more than enough.

 

Thank you for another thorough and thoughtful response! I appreciate you taking the time. I am new to this hobby and my favorite part is learning new things. I feel much better having some ideas of what is happening rather than panicking over the unknown.

i actually did not ever dose any ammonia into my tank during the dark start cycle. I was told that the Tropica substrate I used would leech more than enough ammonia to get things going. Tests over the first couple weeks showed ammonia up to .50 but it did drop to zero pretty rapidly. Perhaps I made a mistake there.

i feel terrible that I introduced these shrimp to a less than ideal tank, i truly had the best intentions and assumed if my parameters were hitting the mark pretty consistently that things would be okay. I definitely underestimated the sensitivity of these creatures and I feel like i let them down. Unfortunately I have no place safer to move them to at the moment but i am going to take steps to try and save them. I’ll make some spinach balls when i get home, add some new cholla tubes and hiding spaces, remove the water softening pillow, cease dosing bacter ae, back off on and slowly ramp up the c02, and work to figure out a remedy for the small ammonia spikes with Prime and distilled water changes. Hopefully some of these shrimp can survive until I have the time and resources to create a shrimp only haven for them to retire to. If in your opinion I am torturing them with these conditions I will happily give them up to someone who can take better care of them, but I’m hoping I can turn this around. Thanks again for the help!

 

Tests over the first couple weeks showed ammonia up to .50 but it did drop to zero pretty rapidly.

Don't think you made a mistake, really. Just didn't have enough ammonia during the cycling process to support all the life in your tank. So now the tank is trying to catch up.

work to figure out a remedy for the small ammonia spikes with Prime

Water changes and Prime will definitely help. Just keep an eye on ammonia and nitrite every day and dose Prime if needed.

Worst case scenario, you could put all the shrimp in some other small container and just do 100% water changes of that container every day or so until the tank is safer for them. No need to give them away.

 

I agree with several of the points mentioned here.

One thing I did not see mentioned though is that stone.... the seiryu stone. This may change the water parameters, raising GH and KH. That CO2 may be causing the stone to leach minerals into the water column at a faster rate than is normal.

Add in the substrate that MAY slightly alter water parameters.....


You don't exactly have a stable setup.



I would, at minimum, at least recommend setting up a separate tank for the shrimp and raising them - any excess shrimp you could toss into that tank once it has become more established and stable.

 

I have not had alot of success with Cherry or Amano shrimp in a planted 38 gallon aquarium with CO2 but I am not sure why you ONLY run your airstone when the CO2 is off. I run my airstone 24 hours per day and especially when CO2 is ON. Some fish don't do well in a CO2 environment without supplemental O2 and shrimp are even more finicky than fish when it comes to just running CO2 without at least an airstone running as well in my opinion.