[GeToChKn]

is there a known Level of Copper that is toxic to inverts?

This is the only thing I can find that has been posted before.

LINK REMOVED

 

[GeToChKn]

What about the copper contained in fertilizers?

Not sure, as I don't dose my tanks except my community tank with cull shrimp but lots of people seem to dose all kinds of ferts without any effect. I'll let someone else chime in with a better response on the amount of copper in most ferts or something and then I could add that to the main post.

 

[GeToChKn]

New copper pipes haven't had a chance to oxidize on the inside, its that layer of oxidation that protects the pipe and prevents copper from entering your water. Therefore, older homes would be better than a new home.

I think copper is overblown, ferts, foods, copper pipes, all safe, stay away from algaecides and medications.

That's the main point of this thread I guess. lol. I just see every week something with dead shrimp thinking the copper in the food was the cause, so I thought maybe this would help those who find it.

 

[GeToChKn]

I see a lot of ideas thrown around, but I still see no facts based on empirical studies. Until I see that, I will be weary but not terrified about copper. My apartment is over 100 years old. If I wasn't using RO/DI, I would be going out of my way to address potential copper issues.

I would also like to see some studies that prove that "no copper kills shrimp". Has anyone done the controls that resulted in dead shrimp secondary to an absence of copper?

Copper is to shrimp like whiskey is to humans. Sure, most of us can consume it in tiny amounts and be ok. Some of us take in a few drops and get deathly ill. Almost all of us will perish if we drink too much whiskey.

My house is almost a 100 years old and I use tap on most of my tanks and don't bother treating anything.

As for no copper kills shrimp, how would you control that study? Most foods on the planet contain copper. Hard to remove it and it's an essential element they need like we do.

At first you state there are no studies, then you come up with an analogy to whiskey saying even a few drops could kill, so what are you basing that on?

Spirulina contain 6.8mg of copper on average per dried cup as is the basis of most fish/shrimp foods, both commercial and specialty foods and has no effects and that is 175x the amount of copper in Spinach. Again, copper is everywhere. I'm sure anyone who uses any active substrates from natural peats/clay/etc, has natural copper in it as well as they active substrates are just mixed earths and clays baked into pellets.

 

[GeToChKn]

The whole point of this thread was to try and dispel some of the myths than any amount of copper would kill shrimp. When people get dead shrimp, then check their fish food and see copper in it, they freak and blame the copper when the amount in foods is trace and is essential in trace amount to shrimp. Avoid putting your penny collection in your tank, don't use copper based fish meds in your tank and you should be fine. Didn't need to turn into a whole debate, just trace amounts won't kill shrimp or all the breeders of the world who feed seaweed and spinach would kill their shrimp.

 

[GeToChKn]

I think with Excel and ferts, there is no standard dosage. They can say, use 5ml/20gal of water but for how many plants of what type. Plants that are carbon happy and lots of them and a low co2 level in the water because of little livestock is going to require different amounts of excel than a tank with 3 plants in it that don't need a lot of excel and with lots of fish that expiring co2 into the water. Same with ferts. Many people use Excel with shrimp and they are fine. Some use it and they die. Without knowing how many plants and the required carbon intake for those plants, it's hard to know how much excel is being used for plants and how much extra is staying in the water and could be affecting the shrimp in a bad way.

 

[GeToChKn]

Hi Tom,

You're preaching to the Choir here I totally agree with you that copper has gotten a bad rep based on unfounded paranoia. I also agree that in a planted tank, that the plants are going to suck it up very quickly.

Personally, I am actually only interested in dietary levels of copper as they relate to feed formulation. I just thought that pointing out that even in species that are reportedly highly sensitive to dissolved copper, we see relatively normal dietary requirements.

I have seen multiple posts online from uneducated keepers bashing certain brands of shrimp food because they contain copper...... like it might as well be arsenic or cyanide, and that any at all, will kill your shrimp..... There are so many posts like this that they create a panic amongst keepers... and then before you know it, people take this misinformation and treat it like fact.... and state it as fact..... and the next guy who hears it doesn't even question it......

Allen

This was my whole purpose for starting this post really, everyone who gets a shrimp death, reads the food label of the food they feed, fine copper and blames copper on a dead shrimp or because they have a copper pipe in their house, blames that. Without getting a test kit like the seachem test kit that will even low levels of copper, you can't blame a pipe for it and as far as foods, as I posted, many of the veggies that everyone feeds contain natural levels of copper. I'm sure there is a toxic level, as there is with anything to any animal. Small amounts of chlorine in our water is fine for humans, drink a bottle of bleach and you'll have a bad time. I don't have the time, nor do I want to do a test on how to kill shrimp with copper, I was just trying to dispel the idea that a small trace amount of copper in foods or ferts for that matter are probably the cause of someones shrimp deaths and there is probably another cause of the death.