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Why aren't my plants thriving??

4K views 28 replies 11 participants last post by  Smitty06 
#1 ·
Hi Planted Tank members!

This is my first time on this forum - I have an issue with my tank that is niggling at me so I thought I'd come here for some advice.

Both myself and my brother keep aquarium tanks - I have concerntrated on discus with great success, and he has been more into plants, also to great success.

In the last couple of months I converted my tank to be more plant-friendly. Previously it had sand for substrate and low lighting. But after helping my brother with his tank and seeing how well his plants were growing (like seriously rapid!) I figured I could do the same. So I opted for the same fertilised substrate as he used - Tetra CompleteSubstrate - with the same sort of thickness, and a similar gravel over the top.

In terms of lighting, our tanks differ. He is using 2 x T5 daylights (about 6mnths old) in a Juwel Rio 180. I am on 2 x T8 30W Daylight + UV light (I think it's UV, its a reddish colour) (about 3wks old).

As for tank sizes, his is 180L, mine is 200L. Although mine goes deeper than his.

We both use RO water from the same system, but we add our chemicals slightly differently, mine is:

Tropic Marin Pro-Discus minerals & Trace elements (for gH)
API proper pH 8.2 (don't freak out - only a small amount to raise kH to 2-3!)
JBL Ferropol weekly fertiliser
JBL Ferropol 24 daily fertiliser

I also run a CO2 injection system on a timer
My pH is 6.5, kH 2-3, gH 10, Nitrates <15ppm, temp 27degC

He is using:
Tropic Marins Re-Mineral Tropic
SeaChem Flourish

Also has a CO2 injection system, not on a timer
His pH is 7, not sure on kH & gH but i'd guess slightly higher kH than mine, Nitrates will also be low, temp 25-26degC

Some other information that might be relevant - we both run our lights for about 10hrs, I run 2 x external filters, he has just 1, both use air pumps, both have similar plants (half of mine came from his tank!)...we do most things the same really, we just vary slightly on equipment and water softness.

So my question to you guys/girls is - how is it that his plants are growing like crazy, but mine barely get by?

Like seriously, every couple of weeks he throws/gives away clumps of cabomba's and valis, he has a meaty amazon sword that has grown the height and depth of the tank, and his plants are all ridiculously green -it's almost blinding!

In contrast - my cabomba's look thin and are a yellowy/lighter green in comparison, the valis leaves are going transparent, and some of the longer leaves that stretch across the top of the tank are a dark brown/red colour. Any new plants I introduce seem to go from a nice green to a pale, week green. I exaggerate a bit, they're not quite as bad as it sounds, and they do have some growth, particularly on the roots. But in comparison to his tank its pretty crap.

Do you think I should change my lights to T5's? Or is it maybe to do with my pH/kH? FYI I can't really change these.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated!
 
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#6 ·
Without seeing the photos T8 lighting is much weaker than T5 lighting. Depending on the depth of the tank and type of plants it could be just fine. You might be okay with Anubias, ferns and mosses but maybe it isn't enough for the plants you are getting from a much brighter tank. The reddish bulb, check its name. Some target the spectrums plants like best and some don't.

Plants grow much faster with CO2.

Water changes you do for the discus could be removing nitrate and phosphate the plants use for nutrients.
 
#11 ·
The bulb is an Arcadia original tropical FO30. The other is a tropic sun.

I think you're right about the type of plants. You can take a look and see what you think, but my thoughts are that the lighter green or high light req plants are doing significantly worse than the low light reqs.

I've got CO2 on the go - when my brother installed his the plants grew amazingly, but since i've added mine i've not had the same success. It's sounding more and more like a lighting issue to me...
 
#13 ·
How long have the plants been in the tank? They don't look too miserable to me. They will grow slower than in your brother's tank because he is using bright light.

Looks like your reddish bulb is designed for photosynthesis. You could just leave it alone for another month to see if you like how it is going and upgrade to T5 or add more T8s and start some comprehensive fertilizer at that point.

Also plants will be shocked going into another tank so you will lose some leaves. Vals can die back to the roots and you might see new plants before the old ones recover. Take off the dying leaves and watch for new growth.

The plant with heart shaped leaves on the left is Anubias. The plant just behind the bristlenose pleco and on the left is Java fern. Both need to have the rhizome out of the substrate and would love to be grown on that nice wood. You can glue them down with super glue gel, tie them or carefully wedge into a crevice. Or attach to a rock so you can place them anywhere you like in the tank.

If the new ground cover is hairgrass it may not survive the low lighting. Even though I have bright light and CO2 my new hairgrass plantings usually turn brown before recovering. Give it a chance and don't remove it if you see any green threads coming up. They are tiny and easily missed.
 
#15 ·
How long have the plants been in the tank? They don't look too miserable to me. They will grow slower than in your brother's tank because he is using bright light and CO2.

Also plants will be shocked going into another tank so you will lose some leaves. Vals can die back to the roots and you might see new plants before the old ones recover. Take off the dying leaves and watch for new growth.

The plant with heart shaped leaves on the left is Anubias. The plant just behind the bristlenose pleco and on the left is Java fern. Both need to have the rhizome out of the substrate and would love to be grown on that nice wood. You can glue them down with super glue gel, tie them or carefully wedge into a crevice. Or attach to a rock so you can place them anywhere you like in the tank.

If the new ground cover is hairgrass it may not survive the low lighting. Even though I have bright light and CO2 my new hairgrass plantings usually turn brown before recovering. Give it a chance and don't remove it if you see any green threads coming up. They are tiny and easily missed.
I didn't know much of any of those plants, even their names, so first of all thanks for educating me :)

The anubias have been part of my tank for a good few years - they were the only plant that survived in the sand substrate. I didn't bother much with plants at that point, as the sand was in constant movement by the large sailfin plec (who is managing to hide in that picture).

I think I've had the java ferns for about 2 months - they also seem to be doing quite well. I wasn't aware about the rhizomes - I'll expose these and maybe tie one of the ferns onto to some wood, that might look quite cool. Will the roots still need to be buried in the substrate? My tank occupants have a habit of munching on exposed roots, so that might be an issue?

The valis, cabomba's and hairgrass are the ones that seem to suffer more. You can't really make out the cabomba's because of the amount of light shining off them, but they're looking a bit limp. They've probably been there for about 2 weeks? I was given a bunch before I brought new bulbs & co2 and they disappeared within 3-4 days (most likely as lunch) so i guess they're doing better.

The hairgrass are only a few days old (i did actually know their name). They have withered a bit since I got them.

The plant you can't see is the madagascan lace! There are 4 bulbs (or rhizomes?) under the substrate - one that has been there for a few months and grown a lot of roots. I randomly found it when I planted the 3 new ones the other day, and I exposed the tops of them as per what I'd read online in hope that they'd grow. These plants are probably the one's i'd most like to cater for - which brings me onto this question - would upgrading the lights have a negative effect on the anubias and java ferns? I'm quite attached to both, but the madagascan lace is on another level in terms of coolness!
 
#19 ·
Oddly they don't list the ingredients. But I gave my brother a call and from what I can gather the tropic discus only increases gH, and requires less per litre, whereas the one he has increases gH and kH (at the amounts he was using, it was about 4kH). Though he moved to using the same one as me about 2 months ago, as he got some discus for his tank (one of them was a gift from me!)

So yeah, if that's vague then I'm sorry. But it sounds like they're nearly identical apart from the addition of kH and instructions for dosage on his (now old) one.

Although I guess it makes no difference, as I add a small amount of API pH8.2 buffer to add kH when it gets too low - the benefit of his was that it already includes it
 
#20 ·
Just as an update, which might be useful for anyone that reads this in future:

My brother had raised the temps in his tank to 29degC to accommodate for the discus and to promote breeding. That was about 2 months ago, and his plants are still doing great, so I think I can rule out temperature as a factor.

He's also using the same minerals as me now, so his kH and maybe pH will be more inline with what mine are. I think that kH and pH are related - and since he has not been using a kH additive his pH should have been decreasing with water changes - he said he will check. I did read online that some plants break down kH for the carbon, like cabomba's, and use this for growth instead of CO2. I can't say this as a fact, but I think it is true. As an aside, my Mum has had a tank for nearly 10yrs that had discus in, and she lost interest and didn't do water changes for months (it's a miracle anything survived! the discus didn't, but her clown loach and rainbow fish are still alive - just), and when I went to test her kH it was 0, and her pH was around 5 i think. She was heading for a major crash. She used normal tap water which in our area is 13kH & 21gH, so the kH was being consumed by something - I assume the plants where breaking it down, and this then caused the pH to drop. As a remedy, we added some white rocks (vague, sorry, I can't remember what they were but they were a natural way of increasing kH) and the pH got up to normal.

That story might be of use to someone...

So I think in my case it's got to be the lighting that needs to change. I'll hit the shops tomorrow and let you know in a few weeks how I got on.

And thanks everyone for the help! I read these forums a lot but it's the first time I've participated, and I'm really glad I did. You've been great! :)
 
#21 ·
Sorry if I'm bombarding you guys with messages!

I've found these for sale at my LFS. Do you think the lighting unit would be overkill?

http://www.waterzoo.co.uk/Arcadia_Ultraseal_T5_54w_Twin-M5228

And would these bulbs be OK, or is there something more suitable?

http://www.waterzoo.co.uk/High_Lite_Day_1200mm_54w_T5-M5715

I'd like to get Juwel bulbs if possible as they come in packs of 2, ergo they're a bit cheaper

Edit: I couldn't find any bulbs that list themselves as 6500k, not sure if I'm looking in the right place though...
 
#22 · (Edited)
Sorry guys, I will have to disagree on T8's being outdated & poor performers!
I run T8's on my 10 & would run them on larger & have run them on larger tanks with great success! My tanks do well with T8's & look great. What you have to realize is the spectrum is the most important factor. 6500k-6700k is the correct range. Yes I know people these days do not like the watts per gallon but is a good general rule & will put you in the ball park.
If your fertilizers are good & filtration with proper diffusion you will not have a problem. T8's are cheaper & last longer & do not use as much juice. They are energy hugs that waste a lot of energy! Thats one reason people that run high light & go rimless to keep the lights from heating up the tank. Rimless tanks look great but fish jump out & shrimp fall out, not fair to livestock. I am not totally against T5's but do not agree with the outdated bashing comments being made is simply not true.
If you are not running canister filters you will be out gassing a lot of CO2! You need good flow & EI dosing with proper lighting spectrum. The plants in the picture with swords are easy growers so something is really out of kilter in your tank & maybe his as well. Switch to big canister filters & make sure you are diffusing proper carbon. Make sure your running 6500k bulbs. Dose EI with 50% water changes a week & use baking soda for KH only & your Gh is too high ! Knock it down to 4-6 range your Combombia will like that better & you will have a better growing condition. My 2 cents
 
#23 ·
Sorry guys, I will have to disagree on T8's being outdated & poor performers!
I run T8's on my 10 & would run them on larger & have run them on larger tanks with great success! My tanks do well with T8's & look great. What you have to realize is the spectrum is the most important factor. 6500k-6700k is the correct range. Yes I know people these days do not like the watts per gallon but is a good general rule & will put you in the ball park.
If your fertilizers are good & filtration with proper diffusion you will not have a problem. T8's are cheaper & last longer & do not use as much juice. They are energy hugs that waste a lot of heat! Thats one reason people that run high light & go rimless to keep the lights from heating up the tank. Rimless tanks look great but fish jump out & shrimp fall out, not fair to livestock. I am not totally against T5's but do not agree with the outdated bashing comments being made is simply not true.
If you are not running canister filters you will be out gassing a lot of CO2! You need good flow & EI dosing with proper lighting spectrum. The plants in the picture with swords are easy growers so something is really out of kilter in your tank & maybe his as well. Switch to big canister filters & make sure you are diffusing proper carbon. Make sure your running 6500k bulbs. Dose EI with 50% water changes a week & use baking soda for KH only & your Gh is too high ! Knock it down to 4-6 range your Combombia will like that better & you will have a better growing condition. My 2 cents
So these are the bulbs I'm currently using:

http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=175&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5

http://www.aquacadabra.co.uk/Arcadia-Original-Tropical-Tube-36-30W.html

What I don't get is why they say on the packaging they're good for plants/photosynthesis if 6500k is what I really need. I'm a bit uneducated in this area. Any ideas?

In regards to your other comments - I'm using 2 external (canister) filters. And I'm not sure what you mean by proper carbon, but It's a CO2 canister, and is run into a diffuser in the tank (right side in the picture).

I don't have amazon swords in my tank but I'm inquisitive as to why you think something is out of kilter with my brothers tank if his swords are growing well?
 
#26 · (Edited)
I haven't had any experience growing Lace plants but have read in the past that they prefer cooler water. Might read up on them, they may not be suitable for your discus tank.

You could put the roots of the Anubias and java fern in the substrate if you like. Just keep the rhizomes out!

My Anubias and java ferns get loads of light and love it. They grow fast and healthy as I dose with a complete fertilizer. You won't need that now as the light is low but if you increase lighting you will need to dose nitrate and phosphate as well as the iron and potassium you are currently using. Anubias is more likely to collect black beard algae and green spot algae in bright light though.

Water changes depend on the circumstances. I love them, see the latest entry in my journal for how large they are and I have been doing them twice a week for a while now. With the bright light and fast growing plants it keeps the tank cleaner and algae is less of a problem.
 
#28 ·
Willwilson, Listen I was commenting on the people knocking T8's. Your brothers tank looks good. But its not the fact that its T8 verse T5 you are not running enough candles, period! You said 200 L at 2x30 watts T8 Right. Thats like a 52-55 gallon tank, if Liters are about 3.8 L per gallon. My math may not be spot on but you get the point. That comes out to be 1.2 watts per gallon. I know old rule but it still works. That is way underpowered for CO2 injection. You could dose liquid carbon & get away with it. Not sure why your running little tubes like 30 watts each on a large tank. That would be underpowered weather T5 or T8 unless your growing Java moss or Microsoriums.
Now if your tank is 48 inches long I would run (4x48 inch) tubes at 40 watts each, but make sure the reflectors are good that is the difference between T5 & T8's The T5 have better reflectors because the market is going that way until LED;'s take over in a few years. As stated before T5 have advantages , but the bulb companies want people to buy them because they make more money because the bulbs burn out quicker! They will heat your tank up more & cost you more money in electricity.
If You have a high budget & lots of money to burn & want some intense light, buy T5's. They work great provided you have the correct spectrum , it needs to be between 6500-6700k , forget the fancy blue or red stock bulbs they will get you into trouble. BGA loves those spectrums!
Regarding comment on why 50% water change. Too long a story, because now we are getting into redox. The cations need replacement. The fish & plants need fresh minerals all the time. Its 1 big reason aquarium keepers get into trouble with diseases. If you do not know that than you could be doing other wrongs like not doing long Qt's on new fish. Ammano does 50% water changes on most of his tanks. Many, Many experienced fish & plant keepers do large water changes. By the way my changes are R/O as well. Not a big deal at all. Most of my problems went away when I switched. Like some have stated EI dosing is the way to go. You need to 40-50% changes to reset the tank. That in part could be part of your problems as well. Healthy balanced aquariums need new fresh water regularly. Just like in nature.Too long a story my friend. Look up Redox & learn why water changes are so important. My 3 cents
 
#29 ·
I have to say, that t8 are outdated, it is like saying that incandescent bulbs are still very relevant. T5s are essentially slimmer more compact t8s that are more efficient and more powerful. Saying that the different spectrum bulbs are the CAUSE of bga is total BS. Look at Plantbrain's tanks, he uses them and do you see any algae? I think not! Do not make statements that mislead people. Why are you still using the wpg rule when everyone knows it is not relevant.
 
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