What do you want in a store?

First off, I don't own a store, so I can only tell you how I feel from a customer perspective. I may be off base but here's how I see things. This basically applies to all stores, not just pet supply or LFS. When I go to a store I'm sick and tired of them not having what I'm looking for. No matter where I go, book store, electronics you name it. Either they don't have it in stock, they only have one model of the thing you want, and of course it's not the model you want, or they don't carry it at all. Then they give you the same song and dance. We don't have it, but we'd be more than happy to order it for you. Gee thanks. Thanks for nothing, I could have don't that last night, at home, without driving all the way over here. That to me, is the biggest frustration with stores today.

Now on to the LFS lol. I'm just back into the hobby recently, after having been out for about 20 years. So I don't know about the trends in LFS in that bit of time. I'm also now in a different state, so I can't compare now to then fairly. But back then, I had access to LFS that were nice. Now it's usually little hole in the wall places with nothing in it.

Here's how I see things when it comes to the LFS. When I pull up to the store, if it's a small little place, I'm already turned off. I'm not a big fan of little mom and pop stores. From my experience it usually goes like this. I pull up, and if I didn't know the address, I'd never even notice it just driving by. You get out of the car, and it's the thing where it's very small. Like one store in the strip mall small. I can already tell looking from the outside, it's a bust. They won't have anything in there, and it's going to be dirty, and no customers. When you walk in, sure enough, I'm the only customer, and right there is when I'm uncomfortable from the get go. They don't have a thing and it's dirty.

At this point in my life, I don't bother going into stores like that. When I pull up to the store, and it's the tiny little store, I don't bother going in.

So what am I looking for? I looking for the stores that I used to go in the past. The stores were big. Not one store in the strip mall. They almost were the strip mall. They had beautiful displays when you walked in. Both fresh and salt water. Displays that inspired you. Wow, I'd love to have something like that, kind of stuff. Things you would strive to do at your own house. The store was clean, and bright. Not all dark and dirty. Oh, yea, and not all smelly either.

Then once you got past the displays and went further back, they had aisles of stuff. Stuff to look at and browse through. Supplies you needed. They also sold tanks, and cabinets, and display stuff. Then they had all types of things you actually needed to run your tank. And not just one hob and one canister. They had all types. All types of motors for your sumps, heavy stuff. Not things for a 20 gallon hospital tank. Pumps for thousands of gallons per hour. Things that are not toys.

Then they had two separate areas. One fresh one saltwater. You could go and marvel at all the livestock. And cool livestock as well. Not just some neons, or plattys. Things you'd actually want, when your not 5 years old.

It just seems like the LFS are so dumbed down today, that they are not worth the trouble to go to. It needs to be like a destination type place. I remember going, and being in there for hours. I'd look at all the livestock first usually, to see what they had. I also would go frequently enough, that I'd see what was new. If I noticed something I liked, I could now think about it, while I did my shopping. I'd then look at the area with tanks. I'd look at the big ones, and the fancy cabinets, that sort of thing. Then finally I'd start in on the stuff I came to buy. I'd get my supplies that I needed. But I'd also then look at all the gadgets they had as well. There's nothing like that today.

Also when you went, the people who worked there, actually were enthusiasts, and had their own tanks, and knew stuff. You could talk to them, and they could carry on a conversation. They could school you about things. They'd tell you what you needed, and things like that.

For me, the LFS needs to be a destination type store. It has to have things that petco/smart don't carry. Otherwise why would I go to the LFS? There's a petco/smart on every corner almost. The problem is, petco/smart only carries the lowest common denominator stuff. Unless you're 5 years old, with a 20 gallon tank, there's nothing there for you. It's not specialized enough. If I have a 300 gallon tank with a 150 gallon sump, and use a pump that moves 5000 gallons a hour, good luck with petco/smart having anything I need. Good luck finding more than one brand of sea salt. Good luck finding any live stock you'd be interested in, never mind it living more than a month.

So the LFS needs to be a specialty destination type of place. Not a little dirty hole in the wall store, carrying next to nothing.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts on many fronts. Whats important to me is building a relationship with a shop, and want to stick around for a couple hours, and talk like i'm talking to someone who i feel generally gives a about me as a customer, not if, and how much i'm going to spend, and having a lot of options whether it be livestock or dry goods, and i want to see it in person, not online. I felt that way about the old skiptons, seaworld in NH when it was around. I like salt, and fresh in the same shop as well as i do both.

I'm not a fan of tropical isle for various reason's but they carry almost everything, and i can window shop instead of screen shop. They carry a lot of options livestock wise as well. But it's not a shop you can build a relationship with.

Neds carrys mainly cichlids, cichlids is my realm, and not small nano fish. I like a good sized fish. I like shops that carry big cichlids, and have a good selection of them, and are healthy, and won't be dealing with ich or hith a few weeks after i bring them home. Ned's offers me that, but dosn't have salt, and i do both, and is a bit pricey.

I'm not into a designer image while being budget conscience, and rimless tanks arn't important to me at this stage in my life, nor do i want to feel like i'm a inferior hobbyist either cause i like my dollar gallon tanks. Regardless of the argument, it's snobby to me, and that turns me off. I'm a android guy, not a iphone guy
Having a high school kid, saving to build a home, paying off school, and general life expense's spending what i would have to, to have the size tank that i like which are larger, not nano small, it's just not logical or make sense for me, and that reality apply's to a lot of people these day's unless they're still living at home or have that money to burn.

I don't want to spend a stupid amount of money on coral. I want to pay forum price's, frag price's, and do the grow out myself. Not only is it a safety net if things were to go bad, but give's me the option of buying more, having more. UA has $10-$20-$30 frag tanks these day's, that was nice to see. I want to see r/o for sale, and-or mixed reef water that is good parameters, and i can just walk in, fill a 5g bucket or hydro-tote.

A shop that isn't a hour+ drive from me lol. I commute all week, it's not fun to do so on the weekends as well, but will, but not for a few options. I want a all in one shop :-??

Websites that are kept up to date with prices, and inventory #, pics are a plus then i can see whats available before making the drive.

Destination place was right on, it's a shame i don't see that changing. It's a tough business to be in, and big chain stores are taking over.

I'm also not a fan of making appointments for shopping trips.

the issue is plants grow and are traded or given away all the time. It's kind of pointless to have a variety of plants. Fish- kind of the same situation. The people on here will come to the store 1) if they know you have a specific fish/shrimp they are picking up or 2) they are just browsing, and there's a 50% chance they will buy something.

IMO that's too risky. Especially for a small business and the upkeep of keeping stock. You're totally ahead by doing special orders only and keeping 1-2 personal display tanks.


equipment wise, you have 2 completely different types of buyers on here.
The "utilitarian" and budget minded people and then you have the people that like the vanity and flashy gadgets.

You're not going to stock anything tank wise that will get the utilitarian people to buy from you. They will wait for the $1/gallon sale at Petco or scour Craigslist. These are typically the people that will multiple tanks setup on whatever equipment they can get to create breeding/grow out projects. They love the hobby and are doing whatever to get it to work.

The flashy gadget people have probably done their shopping homework and will come to the store to buy locally as long as the prices are within online prices (which you are doing). They'll pick up the $100 lily pipes, higher end canisters, substrate, regulators, lighting to make a flashy single display. But that's a one shot deal. Chances are they will only pool it all into one tank, maybe a 2nd. They will come in, drop a few hundred. You won't see them for another few weeks when they are ready to stock.


FW is very hard to pull off. If you're keeping live stock and harder to grow plants, you're stuck on hoping your customer fails at keeping them alive for a second visit.
There's just not enough demand here, and there's not enough trendy heavy spending hobbyists in the area. Sw on the other hand is quite popular, especially on the higher-end car forums. The margin is a bit better too.

Maybe 5 years ago, there wasn't much other than Skipton's around Boston. I would usually wait and throw in a $100-200 online order to offset the next day shipping, stock the tank full and hope nothing got sick.

Much respect for your effort and offerings. Posting this thread really shows you are trying to take it to the next level. I will definitely have to do business with you locally when I need supplies! :thumbsup:

Thanks for everyone’s response thus far! It's also really interesting to get feedback from people out of state. You can really tell how FAR behind MA is in terms of aquatic stores. CA for example, just blows us away.
I think what struck a tone the most with me in the comments thus far is in terms of getting people to a store is the idea that it should invoke the inner kid in everyone. It’s almost as if you could wow people like a public aquarium could, but at the same time provide all the supplies and facilities necessary to help someone recreate what you (the store) have done, that would be most ideal. But as everyone knows, there’s usually a gigantic knowledge gap that must be filled as well. I personally am always wowed whenever I flip through the latest edition (or old ones!) of AGA and see all the masterpiece tanks that have been made. If there were a store that was a gallery of that, like the ADA gallery, that would be really fun for everyone to go to, whether it’s to buy stuff or not.

It’s also really good to see so many people in tune with the business and fiscal side of things in terms of what’s viable or not. I really didn’t know what I was doing, all I know is what I wanted to do. All I wanted to do was provide something better than the local options where the goal isn’t to sell things but rather to help people achieve what they want to achieve at fair pricing. People looking for cichlids, I just pointed at Ned’s right away. I have no background in cichlids and I believe there’s nothing wrong with recommending other businesses. I’ve also talked a lot of people out of buying unnecessary things because my personal attitude towards operating an aquarium is that it should be as natural as possible. Some people even email or call saying that they want X because they heard it’s good when their tank is already looking great in their own eyes. I also did not want to have open hours because I know I wouldn’t be able to provide the same level of service to walk-ins if multiple people showed up. I certainly didn’t think that I can hire people to provide the same –type- of service either, at least without a lot of training. This most likely hurt me a lot in terms of getting business, but I never saw my location as some place particularly eye-catching so it didn’t make sense for me anyways to wait around. I also like dealing with the higher-end of things and the more experienced crowd and really was not targeting people just looking for a goldfish. I would also say that the majority of stores are sustained by maintenance accounts, something which I’m not really interested in putting the time into.

In terms of rimless/frameless tanks being a snobby upscale thing, I really have to disagree with this mentality. To me, it’s not a matter of price or financial status of the owner. It’s an aesthetic choice! That’s why I carry the best priced rimless/frameless tanks and have not been supporting (or been supported by) ADA. As to why they’re more expensive, that’s up to the market to dictate and I don’t think I can be faulted for selling them at the same price as online stores, without bundling shipping into the price. I think if any store can sell at competitive pricing (a.k.a fair pricing), they should.

I have some advice for those people who have gone to stores and have felt like they wasted their time. Just call ahead and make sure they have what you want. This isn’t helpful advice just for aquatics but for everything. I always call ahead to stores like HFT when I need something in particular because I don’t want to drive over there, even if it’s just 7 minutes away, only to find out they don’t have it in stock. If you don’t have a good experience over the phone of finding out the information you need, it’s a good sign of what to expect in person.

That said, I personally do NOT like the retail model where your #1 goal is to drive visitors to your store and have sales associates sell to often unready consumers. It does not sit well with me to let someone walk out without them feeling very confident in what they’re doing or to have them go home and realize that it’s not actually what they wanted. I’m glad that in the 1.5 years I’ve been open I’ve had only one customer want to return something (for financial reasons) and so far nobody has openly told me that they regretted buying anything.

For me personally, I’m an engineer at heart and I like building things. I thoroughly enjoyed setting up my store and talking to people to help solve their problems. Running the store thus far has also taught me a lot about what I like and don’t like about retail and what I’d prefer to do with my time. As I transition to a home-based business I’m going to be able to focus more on aquaculturing and developing technology that’ll make remote shopping more enjoyable and hopefully it’ll be something that can be licensed to other businesses. I also want to do more fabrication! For the freshwater side of things, I'm going to stick with ornamental shrimp because they're my favorite and will order whatever other people want as needed. For the saltwater side of things, I'm going to stock the majority of coral types that I previously had and aquaculture the best wild ones that I can find.

I hope that this thread can provide some help to anyone who’s hoping to set up a store of their own who have greater ambitions than I do on the retail side of things. I don’t really want a pet store to make money, I want a store to make more people successful and most importantly, happy in keeping an aquarium, and I hope that more owners will have that same priority.

@ Matt, utilitarian. That's how my girlfriend described my taste as well as i don't like the ICA as she does, but prefer the fuller museum. Good word~> but i have to respectively disagree on the profiling of the shoppers lol.

@ Anthony i think your store, and it's market has a purpose, has a place in Mass, just not in the right location. I think a location in the middlesex, suffolk county cusp lines would suit you well. If you choose to have a store front again i would encourage that geological area. I can envision your shop next door to GYOStuff on mass ave. in Cambridge, the 2 storefronts would compliment each other

A lot of what you said conjured up some points i've been seeing, and thinking about for a bit now. I see the hay days of big shops offering everything going away, as they are, and a possible rise eventually of specialty shops being the way, but with so many variables of what can go wrong, and stock decisions it's so risky. That just maybe the counter move to big chain stores being in every town.

I just wanted to give an example of what I see as a good way to go with a shop. Aqua View, a LFS in western MA owned by dreamer_yoyo (here on the forums) and her partner.

They specialize in FW shrimp, small fish, and plants. They also have a smaller tanks and equipment, including specialized shrimp food and such, so they're mostly about the nano tanks. So they have that "specialty shop" type model going for them.

They breed the shrimps themselves, so can offer very fair pricing on these compared to what I usually see at shops. I also see them growing out plants both in display tanks and emersed setups in the windows. Being able to keep all the profit (other than cost to maintain) seems like a big business advantage over having to order and sell at a markup, even if it's just a few things in the shop.

They also do a lot of business online, especially Aquabid. So they benefit as both a LFS and an online business.

And of course, they are very knowledgeable and friendly. It's usually just Yoyo in the storefront, as her partner doesn't speak English, but she's always willing to answer questions and smiling, which makes a huge difference for me (there's another LFS not too far away that I refuse to go to, simply because they are so unfriendly and I've heard them give bad advice so many times...) She's also one of those that will recommend you not buy something unless you know what you are doing, she's not just there to make money.

Now I don't know how well they are doing financially, but they've been around for a couple years, and they are definitely my favorite LFS.

Good point on the email communication--I usually just post updates to my site directly or facebook but never really bothered with email because it can sort of be spammy. As I'm reworking the site I am incorporating multiple email options so that people can have daily digests or weekly digests. Then I'd feel a bit better about emails

How do you guys feel about "group buys" from my suppliers? Do you have to see it in person before buying or is a picture sufficient? I'd be happy to just show the catalog of stuff that's in stock that I can get, and batch up a bunch of what people want, then order it all for everyone. It would be priced the same as LA or any other reputable store, without the shipping cost to each individual. I have sort of refrained from pushing this too much because it's hard to coordinate pick up times, but particularly that I might not have the expertise for caring for the unique wants of different people if I end up having to hold the specimen for some time.

This solves two problems on my end--
1. I don't have to guess at what people want, and
2. I don't have to have stuff sitting around waiting for sale because I mistakenly thought someone might be interested in it

This would solve the
1. variety problem on the consumer end, since it's unfeasible to stock the majority of what's available, unless I had a ginormous warehouse
2. solve the individual paying for shipping problem.
3. fair pricing w.r.t LA and other online stores

But at the same time
1. You won't get the benefit of seeing before buying. It's something that I identify a problem for myself when I order.. very few suppliers provide WYSIWYG photos of what I order
2. People should be able to pick up the same day that I receive it. This is just very difficult to do, dependent on how many people are ordering that week. If there were "group buy" leads, that might work, since you guys might live close to each other or are friends with another already. Unfortunately that means you and I would have to trust those leads...

I agree with a lot of the points already mentioned here.
TLDR: Don’t try to be a big chain store. Don’t stock what big chain stores have. Try to have competitive prices and stock hard to get items/plants/livestock that otherwise would be annoying to get online or hard to find online or with shipping very expensive to get online. And have an updated website!!!

I think the biggest problem is the staff and the lack of examples. Having a great planted set up where the plants work out with fish etc. is a great example, inspires potential customers to say “I want that” and could drive sales. Staff that knows what they are doing is also very helpful. I hate going to petco/smart and getting advice that I know is bad and will lead to bad fish/plants that will cause them to die. Obviously, no customer will return and stay in the hobby if their first venture into tanks ended in disaster. I think the key is to do nothing like the big stores! You can’t compete with them. Don’t try! And I like the idea of the “destination fish store” that was previously mentioned.

As far as products go, I agree with more plants! I especially think crypts, ferns, mosses, anubias and bucephalandras. Here is my reasoning. Those plants are fairly low demand plants that take off in CO2 and high light settings which can be set up in a store and have them grow in store. I also think that they would be available as plants for a wider customer base (except buces, but buces would add a little bit of something-something that would add “coolness factor”), because they are tolerant of a wide variety of conditions. I do see anubias in more stores, but the species are limited and the prices are quite frankly usually ridiculous. $15 for an 8 leaf rhizome of A. nana 'petite' is just astronomical and hardly anyone will pay that amount. If you expect a large profit margin like big box stores on all your products then yes, those plants and products will sit around until someone not budget conscious will come around. On the other hand, with enough care and set ups (I have one at home) anubias will grow fast enough that you don't need to spend a large amount on set up and then charge high prices for small amount of plants. They also grow fairly fast that you can cover a larger area quite quickly and allow selling off amounts for fairly low prices (online prices). I think it would be fair to have availability for example so that once a large amount of plants have been sold off, that you can let the stock recover a bit and I think customers would be alright with that.

Ferns and mosses once acclimated grow like weeds. Set them up properly and you cannot help yourself but to start trimming and weeding weekly. The plant grow out tanks could look nice and could be handled as their own system with smaller filters (low bioload doesn't need much filtration) and shrimps for example. Then you don't need to use much CO2 as you would if you have those tanks all hooked up to one 1000 gallon sump with lots of off-gassing. Crypts, anubias, ferns, mosses, etc. all allow for that. Other plants like H. pinnatifida, blyxa, or generally hygros, etc. don't need much care (fertilizers) and will grow nicely in moderate light and CO2.

I also think livestock that is a bit more diverse would help, rather than the big box store guppies and platies. Those fish can be found in the big box stores, and you cannot compete with them anyways. Get fish that are popular and a bit rarer. Nice wild caught cardinals, pencil fish, wild bettas, loaches, plecos, nano schooling fish, etc. You could even start breeding some of these (like plecos, bettas, etc. and supply your own stock).

As far as equipment goes, I think a balance is necessary. I'd carry some nicer filters, and parts but I don't expect all possible filters to be carried.

The biggest item I always miss in almost any store are scaping materials. Nicer substrates as well as a variety of stones, wood, etc. Those are usually exclusive online to begin with and then shipping makes it so expensive that it becomes unaffordable. For example, I am looking to rescape a 20 gal high. I am looking for several nice pieces of wood and substrate. I’ve found nice ones online or from TPT members, but shipping alone costs 1/3 of the sales price of the goods and I am not made of money (yes I know, wrong hobby for that!)

When I want something outlandish I will always go online and don't expect any store to carry that item anyways. For example, outlandish plants that require very special conditions those I don’t expect anyone to carry.

Sorry for the long post guys!