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Vivarium - Frog & bucephalandra

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Hey,

Sorry if my english isn't really good (it's not my firsth language).

I have an aquarium for 3 years (I rebuild it one month ago) but this is not the main topic.
Water Plant Plant community Pet supply Organism

I would like to make an new projet : a vivarium for bucephalandra (I like this small plant) but I would like to add a true ecosythem in and the true issue I would like to be a Borneo biotope.

The Idea is to have a Small aquarium in the Bottom with Small Fish or one Betta + shrimp (No Idea is I Can Find This Kind of Specie)


and the second part to have a small animal (frog / gecko ; lizard) to live between plants and flowers. I would like to have a lot of Invertebrate / collombel to create a true ecosytheme.

for the technical part I thniking to an terrarium 45*45*60 or 45*45*90 cm and I will see the other part after.

Thanks in advance for your help

A frog man
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Hey,

Sorry if my english isn't really good (it's not my firsth language).

I have an aquarium for 3 years (I rebuild it one month ago) but this is not the main topic.
View attachment 1047283
I would like to make an new projet : a vivarium for bucephalandra (I like this small plant) but I would like to add a true ecosythem in and the true issue I would like to be a Borneo biotope.

The Idea is to have a Small aquarium in the Bottom with Small Fish or one Betta + shrimp (No Idea is I Can Find This Kind of Specie)


and the second part to have a small animal (frog / gecko ; lizard) to live between plants and flowers. I would like to have a lot of Invertebrate / collombel to create a true ecosytheme.

for the technical part I thniking to an terrarium 45*45*60 or 45*45*90 cm and I will see the other part after.

Thanks in advance for your help

A frog man
I am a big fan of frogs and paludariums/vivariums.

What species of frog you consider will change dramatically on the conditions inside the vivarium. You mentioned bucephalandra, do you mean to grow this underwater in the tank or above the water?

If you want to grow it above the water, you will need to keep humidity in the tank at or very near 100% all of the time. This leads to significant problems actually viewing the tank as condensation will always be on the glass. You can still find a frog that can live in this kind of environment, but you will be much more limited. Reed Frogs are supposed to do well kept like this.

The problem with reed frogs (this is from things I've read) they are nocturnal and they are LOUD in their calling. So if you are light a sleeper, you will have issues.

If you don't mind keeping the buce below the water's surface your options greatly open regarding frogs. BUT, certain other structural limitations will suddenly come into play.

It's fun to have a nice looking aquarium inside a vivarium. But practically speaking it's hard to carry off unless the tank is huge. In order to keep a betta you want at least 5 gallons of water. Using your 45x45x60 sized tank as an example, that would mean having the entire floor of the tank filled with water to a minimum of 10 cm deep before you can safely do it. that doesn't leave any room for terrestrial plants that aren't going on the back and/or sides of the vivarium.

In the 90cm option you can make it happen much more easily, but it's still not straight forward. Keeping the water in the water section is either very challenging, or the solution (siliconing in some more glass as a separator) ends up looking pretty bad and very unnatural. It can be done, but.... yeah, it might not match the vision you have in your head.

In other words, you will be far better off keeping your water critters living in aquariums and your terrestrial critters living in separate vivariums setup for their needs. This will be the case until you hit somewhere around 100 gallons of tank. At that point it becomes far easier to aesthetically work in a land and water section and still have enough room for both to be meaningful.
 

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I am a big fan of frogs and paludariums/vivariums.

What species of frog you consider will change dramatically on the conditions inside the vivarium. You mentioned bucephalandra, do you mean to grow this underwater in the tank or above the water?

If you want to grow it above the water, you will need to keep humidity in the tank at or very near 100% all of the time. This leads to significant problems actually viewing the tank as condensation will always be on the glass. You can still find a frog that can live in this kind of environment, but you will be much more limited. Reed Frogs are supposed to do well kept like this.

The problem with reed frogs (this is from things I've read) they are nocturnal and they are LOUD in their calling. So if you are light a sleeper, you will have issues.

If you don't mind keeping the buce below the water's surface your options greatly open regarding frogs. BUT, certain other structural limitations will suddenly come into play.

It's fun to have a nice looking aquarium inside a vivarium. But practically speaking it's hard to carry off unless the tank is huge. In order to keep a betta you want at least 5 gallons of water. Using your 45x45x60 sized tank as an example, that would mean having the entire floor of the tank filled with water to a minimum of 10 cm deep before you can safely do it. that doesn't leave any room for terrestrial plants that aren't going on the back and/or sides of the vivarium.

In the 90cm option you can make it happen much more easily, but it's still not straight forward. Keeping the water in the water section is either very challenging, or the solution (siliconing in some more glass as a separator) ends up looking pretty bad and very unnatural. It can be done, but.... yeah, it might not match the vision you have in your head.

In other words, you will be far better off keeping your water critters living in aquariums and your terrestrial critters living in separate vivariums setup for their needs. This will be the case until you hit somewhere around 100 gallons of tank. At that point it becomes far easier to aesthetically work in a land and water section and still have enough room for both to be meaningful.
Actually for bucephalandra, I find that they don't need 100% humidity to grow above the waterline. They can do well in a splash zone if you create a mini stream/water fall that splashes water on them constantly if the humidity is super low (open top). You can even have water constantly flowing onto their roots and the Microclimate created by that is enough if its a semi-closed top.

Maybe it's species dependent, from my experience, Bucephalandra Titan and Bucephalandra Phantom both do well in average humidity, maybe around 75%.

Plant Water Organism Terrestrial plant Aquatic plant
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hey,

Thank you for all this recommandation. The idea was to have a waterfall from the top ( a little like this terrarium)
(don't know if I can post youtube link).

after for the main goal is to have a true bioecosystem.

I'm still in reflection about what I want to do with which specie to used.

For buce I was thinking that waterfall + geotextill + fogger should be fine (same hydrometry that moss). About the noise if I can avoid to have a very noisy frog should be helpfull. I live in a flat with my wife and cat does enough of mess.
 

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I find that they don't need 100% humidity to grow above the waterline

...

You can even have water constantly flowing onto their roots and the Microclimate created by that is enough if its a semi-closed top.

...

Maybe it's species dependent
Definitely species-dependent. And region-dependent - the humidity in my area of the US is way higher than most areas of the country, so they do well here. They don't do as well in more arid environments, as it takes more effort to create a more humid environment.

It also depends upon whether they were illegally smuggled from the wild, as most Buce in the hobby still are (yup - sadly), or if they've been grown in environments that aren't similar to their native habitat.

fogger should be fine
Foggers that you place in tank water aren't suitable for use with frogs or most tank inhabitants. Contaminants build up relatively quickly. Also not that safe to have around humans. It'd be best to use a suitable cool mist humidifier (that you know others use successfully) that you use only with RO/DI or distilled water. And keep it extremely clean.

I'm going to move this thread to the Vivariums section of the forum so it gets seen by those who don't frequent the rest of the forum.
 

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I come from French and we have a lot of shop selling buce. I have a distilled water systheme for my aquarium this isn't an issue.

I understand it's buce or frog both are note really compatible in vivarium.
 

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I come from French and we have a lot of shop selling buce. I have a distilled water systheme for my aquarium this isn't an issue.

I understand it's buce or frog both are note really compatible in vivarium.
Most of those shops in France (and everywhere else) are selling illegally plundered and smuggled Buce. That's just the reality of the hobby. The only way to know Bucephalandra aren't plundered and smuggled or imported via surreptitious means: tissue-cultured plants.

But Buce and frogs are compatible with each other. Depends upon the type of frog you're keeping.
 

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Hey,

Thank you for all this recommandation. The idea was to have a waterfall from the top ( a little like this terrarium)
(don't know if I can post youtube link).

after for the main goal is to have a true bioecosystem.

I'm still in reflection about what I want to do with which specie to used.

For buce I was thinking that waterfall + geotextill + fogger should be fine (same hydrometry that moss). About the noise if I can avoid to have a very noisy frog should be helpfull. I live in a flat with my wife and cat does enough of mess.
There might be a translation issue here. The tank you posted does not have a "waterfall". It does have an automated misting system (probably a Mistking). Having a mistking (or other automated misting system) is very easy to implement. Conversely, implementing a waterfall (where water is constantly recycling through the tank and falling from the top of the tank to the bottom) is much more challenging.

The tank in question is also mostly a vampire crab tank (I think they were vampire crabs, definitely some type of terrestrial crab). They also have some mourning geckos in there. Mourning geckos are kind of a plague upon the world :p They reproduce by cloning themselves and do so with absolute abandon. I can't really be sure if they are thriving in there so much as outbreeding their own destruction. /shrug

Normally I would say crabs and geckos are not compatible for somewhat obvious reasons. They are likely 'working' only because the lizards have not been hunted to extinction by the crabs. It's kind of an interesting thunderdome experiment, but I don't know if I would really recommend it to anyone.

Anyway, if you want to keep mourning geckos in a tank like this you can but you could not for instance keep a betta without a lot more water. In the video they were keeping a couple of shrimp and that's really the most you could keep in what is probably 1 or 2 gallons of water that is in this tank. Another thing to keep in mind is that the person who owns this tank definitely cleaned the glass of condensation before filming. I would bet good money that normally the tank has significant condensation on the glass at any one time. So just keep that in mind if you want to go forward with something like this.

Personally, I've had really bad luck keeping buce alive above the water as it dries out very quickly and usually in less then a week the leaves above the water's surface dry out and die, but clearly there is some sweet spot where it can be done. If I were you, I'd error on the side of too much moisture where the buce is concerned (not that they really can have too much).

If you wanted instead to keep frogs.... well I don't think most frogs would do well in this type of tank. First off I am assuming you won't be keeping crabs :p, but even then the tank is VERY wet. Reed frogs as mentioned can live in that kind of environment but they are noisy. The frogs that are quiet that I know of are dart frogs, but they would absolutely not do well with this much wet. A dart frog should really be kept in the 60-80% humidity range and an open water source (pond, aquarium, etc) are not of any value to them as they don't use them for egg laying or typically for drinking. It will however pose a problem as most of their food (almost always flightless fruit flies) will drown themselves in it before the frogs get to it.

It can be done with a much bigger tank, but not in a small tank where the water section is going to be most of the floor.
 
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