[Chon_Lee]

I don't happen to have a scale at work, but I've brought measuring cups and spoons in. Is anyone able to give me a rough estimate of what 200g citric acid and 200g baking soda is in cups. Or even the most reliable recipe in cups.


EDIT: I went back through old threads and found this... http://www.chymist.com/Mass-volume equivalents.pdf

I did a rough calc and found that 1C + 2.5Tbsp is ~200g of Citric acid and 3/4C + 2Tbsp is ~200g Baking Soda.

 

[Krakozavr]

Hi friends!
In my experience, the original chinese scheme working not very well. The pressure is growing constantly. I made some changes based on the Russian forums recommendations, and I added some my own improvement. Now, I have a very stable system, pressure is totally consystent (started from 1.5ATM, may floating around, depend of a temperature or so, between 1.3 - 1.7, it's pretty enough).

The proper proportions are:
acid: 150g+200ml of water
soda: 200g+minimal amount of water enough to cover a soda.

You can load more, just keep a proportion.

My last load (acid: 300g+400ml of water, soda 400g + minimal amount of water to cover soda) still working for my 75G tank with a dropchecker control 24/7 more of 3 weeks for now.

The scheme is attached.
It is very important to put the acid output at the bottom of the soda bottle, under the soda layer, instead to drop it from the top.
Also, using a needles is important for acid dosage. You will need at least one needle at the soda's side of the system; I prefer to use two with some reasons. You can try.

You will be unable to starting the system in common way; anyway it was too annoying for me. I using the car air pump to make a proper pressure in the system. Bicycle air pump should be OK, too It is much faster and easiest, at least for me

P.S. Also, I played with a ceramic diffusers, and they are just a garbage. I received a really small bubbles (like a gas dust) only with a twig; I using maple twig but you can try some other woods. Works just perfect and cost nothing.

 

[jrill]

Hi friends!
In my experience, the original chinese scheme working not very well. The pressure is growing constantly. I made some changes based on the Russian forums recommendations, and I added some my own improvement. Now, I have a very stable system, pressure is totally consystent (started from 1.5ATM, may floating around, depend of a temperature or so, between 1.3 - 1.7, it's pretty enough).

The proper proportions are:
acid: 150g+200ml of water
soda: 200g+minimal amount of water enough to cover a soda.

You can load more, just keep a proportion.

My last load (acid: 300g+400ml of water, soda 400g + minimal amount of water to cover soda) still working for my 75G tank with a dropchecker control 24/7 more of 3 weeks for now.

The scheme is attached.
It is very important to put the acid output at the bottom of the soda bottle, under the soda layer, instead to drop it from the top.
Also, using a needles is important for acid dosage. You will need at least one needle at the soda's side of the system; I prefer to use two with some reasons. You can try.

You will be unable to starting the system in common way; anyway it was too annoying for me. I using the car air pump to make a proper pressure in the system. Bicycle air pump should be OK, too It is much faster and easiest, at least for me

P.S. Also, I played with a ceramic diffusers, and they are just a garbage. I received a really small bubbles (like a gas dust) only with a twig; I using maple twig but you can try some other woods. Works just perfect and cost nothing.

I don't have the constant rising pressure problem you describe. The Chinese pro system seems to work ok for me as designed so I don't see what problem you have fixed.

 

[Hilde]

Hi friends!
The pressure is growing constantly. I made some changes based on the Russian forums recommendations, and I added some my own improvement. Now, I have a very stable system, pressure is totally consistent.

Also, using a needles is important for acid dosage. You will need at least one needle at the soda's side of the system; I prefer to use two with some reasons. You can try.

When I had pressure rising I had a leak.
What changes did you make?
What do you mean by needles?

Bump:

If at some point point your needle valve fails or get hold a correct pressure i have an alternative. Its tedious but works. You simply alter the amount of water in your citric acid solution. My recipe is 2.5 cups of water ( close to your 600ml). So i added a 3 cups instead, and reaction slowed to a crawl. 2.75 cups was a little better.
I also tried 2 bottles at 2.5 cups on a one diffuser. That drained both bottles in 1.5 days and sent my Ph down to 6.4... so then i did 2.75 cups and that seemed ok.
Point is play with the amount of water in your acid and you get varying reaction rates

Chon_Lee here is someone whom used cups for measurements.

 

[Hilde]

The formula for this reaction, according to a web search is
3NaHCO3 + C6H8O7 --> C6H5Na3O7 + 3CO2 + 3H2O
This suggest that 3 mole of baking soda ( NaHCO3 ) is needed to react with one mole of citric acid (C6H8O7) . Using an online mole to gram converter, give s that 3 mole of NaHCO3 is around 250 g and one mole of citric acid is around 192 g.

The amount of water added to each is probably not important, just add enough to dissolve the acid and enough to cover the baking soda with a thin layer of water.

I am currently trying this to see how it goes.

Well how long did it last?

Krakozavr when you were talking about needles did you mean mole as ecotanker talks about?

 

[jrill]

Well today was the last day for the mix. I only got a disappointing 21 days out of it. A bit short of the 30 I got last time. I think I will call it good enough for now and just stay with this last one and be happy with 20 to 30 days. Not even sure I want to keep the tank I am running it on as a high light tank. I have been thinking about switching it over to low to medium light. We shall see.

 

[Rohan]

Hello Jrill,

Many of us are using the citric acid and soda co2 reactor. I am also also running a setup for past 2-3 days and observed some points from which I concluded that the output is controllable but not constant. I may be wrong but I need other's observations and advices to make this setup even better.

My logic as well was practical observations:

1. Bottle A is mixed with 200gms citric acid and 600ml water. Bottle B is mixed with 200gms soda and 200ml water.
2. After adding all the equipments and keeping the needle valve or ball valve closed, we need to squeeze the bottle A and citric acid flows into bottle B containing soda. As soon as both of them react co2 is produced and some amount of co2 or soda mixture(CORRECT ME HERE,WHETHER IS IT CO2 OR SODA THAT BACKFLOWS) flows back to bottle A. Pressure in both the bottles increases and i think pressure in bottle A is a bit higher than that of bottle B(CORRECT AGAIN IF ITS INCORRECT). Now we can open the needle or ball valve when the pressure reaches 15-20 PSI or 1-1.5 kg/cm3.
3. As soon as we open the co2 flows from bottle B to tank and we can adjust the bps with needle valve.
4. Now after some time when co2 production slowly depletes in bottle B(CORRECT WHETHER CO2 PRODUCTIONS GRADUALLY DECREASES WITH TIME) the output will keep on decreasing and due to this decrease in pressure in bottle B citric acid flows from bottle A to B to make adjustments in pressures. And as soon as the citric again reacts with soda, co2 produces and the output slowly increases.

Now here's my point. At some point of time output starts decreasing and then again it will increase. Therefore a fluctuation on co2 output and thereby not consistent.

What you guys think of this?

 

[jrill]

Not quite sure what your asking, but pressure does change. I find that over all pressure increases over the life of the mix until it empties the citric acid bottle and pressure peaks. For me this last buildup lasts about a week and during that time is the when bubble count is inconsistent. I need to open the needle valve a bit more each day over that week until no pressure is left.

 

[Rohan]

I am asking that does the output remains same throughout the time or it fluctuates? as per my observations and calculations the bps and output will vary from time to time, thus fluctuations of co2

 

[Rohan]

You mean to say pressure on bottle A keeps on increasing gradually even when there is no leak until the whole CA has been consumed?

 

[Rohan]

Do you mean that pressure of the system gradually increases with time?

 

[jrill]

Do you mean that pressure of the system gradually increases with time?

After two or three weeks or so mine has always increased as the last 1/3 or so of the citric acid is used up.

 

[Rohan]

I will be posting a modified DIY version of mine with pneumatic parts assembled from local stores. Locally 3-4 hobbyists are using the same setup. We got inspired by the banggood version and started assembling for our own version which costed 1/3 the actual price.

 

[Hilde]

Locally 3-4 hobbyists are using the same setup. We got inspired by the banggood version and started assembling for our own version which costed 1/3 the actual price.

Anxious to see it.

 

[mistergreen]

Has anybody used baking powder? All you need is to add water. As you know water releases the acid in baking powder to react with the baking soda.


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[Rohan]

Here's what we used for the complete setup:

1. Pressure gauge with connecting adapter ( 2.5$)
2. Needle Valve with connecting adapter (2$)
3. PU Pipe - 6mm(4 metre) (1$)
4. CO2 caps from Banggood (1.4$ each)
5. Ball valve with connecting adapter(Optional) (3$)
6. Flow Controller with connecting adapter(Optional) (2.5$)
7. Teflon Tape (0.5$)
8. Safety valve with adapter connector (1.2$)

Total - 13$ approx.

Here are some pics of the setup:

 

[jrill]

But, you can buy that system for $13 on eBay. Or for another $8 buy the pro kit with the plastic bar.

 

[Rohan]

This is even better than the box one. Moreover it is flexible. Even if you have any leak at any part you can fix or replace which you can't with the Chinese version. Once it leaks you have to throw it away. This is the USP of this setup. Also price is lower than the pro version and works as efficient as the so called pro one.

 

[mistergreen]

Hey, how does liquid from bottle A get pulled in bottle B?


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[jrill]

This is even better than the box one. Moreover it is flexible. Even if you have any leak at any part you can fix or replace which you can't with the Chinese version. Once it leaks you have to throw it away. This is the USP of this setup. Also price is lower than the pro version and works as efficient as the so called pro one.

Interesting. I hope it works out like you plan.