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Trying out Citric acid and Baking soda CO2

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406K views 871 replies 79 participants last post by  natemcnutty  
#1 · (Edited)
Based on a post I made in response to a question about Citric acid and Baking Soda CO2 it was suggested that I start a new thread to show my project. Here goes.
Out of boredom I setup a small 10 gallon tank a few months ago and purchased a Fugeray Planted Plus to go med to high light with DIY yeast CO2. After using the yeast method for several months I got tired of the lack of pressure and ability to adjust the output the way I used to do a few years ago with a pressurized system. Sure I could have spent the money on a new pressure system, but what fun would that be.
I started reading up on improving the yeast method when I came across the information on the Citric acid and Baking soda method. I did the research and found several threads here and on other sites with varying results. I looked on ebay and found the plastic bar type setup for $30.00 from a place in New York that also included two starter bags of powder. For $30.00 I figured what the heck, lets give it a go. Bought it and set it up a little over a week and a half ago.
I had read reports of the output from the Citric Acid/Baking Soda mix to be close to a month, 8 hours a day at 1bps. Currently I am running 2.3 bps 24/7 and only getting six days. Not what I was hoping for so now I am looking to improve on that . I will need to remix powders on Saturday and am going to try shutting off the flow when the lights are out using a valve I put together. I suppose I could purchase an electric solenoid but then you start adding cost and when do you stop and just go pressure. I will stop when it stops being fun I guess. :hihi:
Hopefully I will be able to add a few pictures after I post this. I am also playing around with different reactors to increase dissolve rates. I started with a Tom Barr internal reactor but that did not work any better than putting the CO2 into the intake on the eheim 2211 I have on this tank so I went back to that. Besides that the reactor takes up alot of room in a small 10 gal.
What I like about the citric acid is the output is much stronger than yeast and there is no waiting for the pressure to build up. I have much more bubble count control with the needle valve. I only need to see a huge increase in the time between refills for me to say I like it.
I will try to update now and then as I make changes and am very open to suggestions or questions.
Image
 
#37 ·
Just the baking soda. At the end the citric acid bottle is empty with all the fluid having been moved to the baking soda side. The baking soda slowly dissolves as it produces the co2. Even after the citric acid side is empty and the soda dissolved it continues to produce co2 for a day or more.
 
#39 ·
I have one of these, they work but are cheaply made and don't last. Im replacing mine with pressurized CO2 as soon as my tank arrives and gets filled. I have automated my co2 with pH controller and a solenoid. I also added a pressure regulator after the junk stock needle valve(to which I leave wide open), and a second but better needle valve after the pressure regulator.





 
#45 ·
Its not really designed for how I'm using it. I'm sure that if there was a slow constant flow like how it supposed to be used instead of the nearly full on full off like do, it would last longer. Its just not designed for PH controller systems.

I do still stand by my statement that pressurized CO2 would be cheaper in the long run.





20 gallon

 
#49 ·
Here are my results so far from using the Citric Acid and Backing Soda method of producing C02. I started at the beginning of February with the goal of achieving 14 days of production at approximately 2.0bps before I needed to replace the powder mixes. I first installed a ball valve and then a solenoid in order to run the CO2 only during the daylight hours or for 8 hours a day. So far the best I have been able to achieve is nine days. So for me the question I have to answer is is this good enough to continue and is it worth the effort as opposed to switching to a pressurized system. To me cost and maintenance are the only issues. When used on a small tank where you do not need more than 3bps my experience has been that this system is every bit as reliable and adjustable as a pressurized system. The Citric Acid and Baking Soda can produce far more that 3bps but I would think at that rate of production powder consumption would make the system much less cost effective.
I asked users of pressure systems to share on average how much they spend on refilling their CO2 tanks per year. Based on those responses and my own personal experience in the past it would seem that on average users are refilling a CO2 tank twice a year. Costs and tank size varies so I rounded out the results and will call it $30.00 a year for CO2 gas. Equipment cost for a regulator setup can vary widely from $80.00 to $500.00 or more. I am going to use $200.00 as the cost of a regulator and tank for my cost calculations. I understand these cost will vary depending on your preference.
So ,
Pressurized system $200
Citric Acid System w/ball valve or solenoid $45.00
Using these numbers it costs $155.00 more for the pressure system at start up.
How long will it take to make up that cost comparing the price of the gas to Citric Acid and Baking Soda?
By buying Citric Acid and Baking Soda 50lbs at a time on Amazon a powder charge will cost me $1.50 every nine days. That comes out to $60.00 a year and approximately $30.00 a year more expensive than C02 gas for the pressure system. So at $30.00 a year it would take 5 years to break even. After those five years you will then save that $30.00 a year with a Pressure System.
For me at this time I am going to stay with the Citric acid system simply because I do not wish to spend the money on a pressure system. Of course I say that today, who knows what tomorrow will bring :wink:.
I hope this rambling makes sense. I am not now nor have I ever been a writer but I tried my best. I would be glad to answer questions and will continue to post updates as I play around with the powder formula to see if I can increase recharge times.

JR
 
#401 ·
jrill said:
I started at the beginning of February with the goal of achieving 14 days of production at approximately 2.0bps before I needed to replace the powder mixes.

Citric Acid System w/ball valve or solenoid $45.00
By buying Citric Acid and Baking Soda 50lbs at a time on Amazon a powder charge will cost me $1.50 every nine days.
Click to expand...
Mathically I figure using 200g of citric acid for 18 days will use 10lbs per year. Converting grams to oz does not give exact amount of what is used though. Thus wondering how many times you can add 250g from a 5lb (1/10 of 50lbs) bag of citric acid?
 
H
#50 ·
Thank you for taking the time and effort to report on this. I enjoy experimenting with stuff, too, so I may try this on my 65 gallon low light tank. CO2 is very helpful even with low light, but you don't need the high bubble rates that are needed with high light. The only down side, for me, to using this system is the need for weekly maintenance on the CO2 system. I have learned that I tend to be somewhat erratic about that sort of thing. It is fun to start out, and not much of a chore for the first few months, but later it is easy to slack off too much. And, that would invite BBA to start growing. I have had enough BBA to last a lifetime, so that may be all it takes to discourage me from trying this. But, I still think it looks promising and better than a yeast system.
 
B
#53 ·
It strikes me that this is a pretty good alternative for small stand alone tanks.

I ordered one of the cheap kits from banggood. D301 After about a week they sent me an email to say they didn't have that sku number so they wanted permission to send me another kit. Anyway it remains to be seen if I get it this year!
 
H
#54 · (Edited)
I have the citric acid CO2 setup for my 40 gallon medium to high light tank. I got it off e-b-a-y shipped from China and it arrived on Feb 17th (within 9 days, I was luck I guess). I set it up on the 18th of Feb and it is still going strong. The pressure went a little low after a week and I just swirled the baking soda solution to dissolve the baking soda more and shake it up and squeezed the Citric acid bottle a few times to get the pressure back.

I run at almost 1 bps for 12 hours and when the lights are off for the next 12 hours, I run at 1 bubble every 4 seconds or so. Today is the 14th day and looks like it will go on for another week at least. The Citric acid solution is a little low and the airline tube in the bottle is above the solution, so when I squeezed it to increase pressure, I just made sure the tubing was under the solution by tilting the bottle a little. I guess I will increase the Citric acid solution a little more in the next refill and see how it goes because I still see undissolved baking soda in the bottom of the other bottle.

Cheers,
Hari
 
#55 ·
Interesting. By the way, its okey to write eBay.
Not sure why you need to be squeezing the bottle after it starts. I have never had that issue. All of the citric acid gets sucked out of the bottle about a day prior to all the baking soda dissolving. Mine will then maintain production for a few more days until the pressure finally drops.
 
#98 · (Edited)
BruceF said:
How many times can 5lbs of citric acid be used to fill Bottle A with 1 3/4 cups?
Click to expand...
16oz per lb.
16oz x 5lbs = 80
1 3/4 cups = 14oz
80/14 = 5

Bump:
jrill said:
Hilde,
I am a little confused. I had followed the thread you reference before. It looks like you are asking the same questions you asked about a year ago in that thread. Did you use it then and stop?
Click to expand...
I set the system up before I went out of town in Aug 2014. When got back found that it had not started up. Set the system up again Mar 4, 2015. My memory is bad so I don't remember what I said last year. Reading the thread with a head cold now, for I am out of Co2. Fortunately only have 3 fish in the tank so they shouldn't be affect by the decrease in Co2 for a day.
 
#111 ·
jrill said:
Trying this formula next.
Bottle A 150g citric acid in 800 ml water
Bottle B 200g baking soda in 400ml water.
Click to expand...
Bottle A original- 200g citric acid and 400ml water
Bottle A new -150g citric acid (25% less) 800ml water (doubled)

Bottle B orininal-200g soda and 800ml water
Bottle B new- 200g soda (same) and 400ml water (50% less)

The changes to your solution are not cosistant. I think I read that Evilfish decreased the citric acid and baking soda by 25%. Since increasing did not work I would do the opposite, decrease by 25%
 
#116 ·
Not sure what your asking. My longest was 9 days and shortest was 7. Bottle B always ends up full with A empty which is how it works. Pressure does stay pretty stable to the end but you can shake it up at the end to increase the dying pressure and get another day or so. I have gone two or three days after A is empty from the built up pressure.
 
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