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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Maybe you have some advice to offer me?

I like using Tropica Mastergrow (I think they have changed the name now to Aquacare) a lot. But at $69.99 for 5 litres plus shipping it is on the expensive side. A 500ml bottle is way too small but a 5 litre bottle is too large.... I wonder what alternatives there are?

Is this Seachem Pond Flourish for $23.99 plus shipping the same as the fertilizer they sell in the 500ml bottles?

If it is, then I might well go for that - it looks cost effective.

I guess the only other possibility is Greg Watson's CSM + B mix. I used that once and did not like the gunky nature of it. Maybe I should try it again? Anyone using this regularly?

I find the Tropica product is very good at giving nice quality leaf growth.

Appreciate some advice...
 

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I just recently switched to the expensive stuff (Tropica's TMG-relabeled) and I have to admit it blows away CSM+B. I'm not sure what is in it that makes the real difference, but same dosage and I get more brilliant reds, larger leaves and "stronger" growth (thicker stems).

The only knock I had on CSM was it made a nasty precipitate in my liquidoser, which would eventually clog the opening by the end of the week. I tried mixing it full strength (1 TABLEspoon/250 mL) and diluted (1/2 TBL) and the same result. I got tired of using peroxide/bleach in the liquidoser and cleaning with q-tips it so took the plunge and switched. I doubt I'll go back.

I suppose its an unfortunate cost of the hobby...talk with Tom (Barr)...I think he and the SF guys were considering buying a whole pallet of the stuff...maybe he can hook you up cheaper.
 

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I've used all 3. I don't care much for the CSM+B, but I'm not really sure why. I started using Flourish and went back to that pretty quickly. I have recently started using the Tropica as a "Test", so I don't have any results to offer yet. I am only using it on 1 setup though.

I would suggest trying the Flourish and seeing if it is actually cost effective by the results. If not, then consider going back to the Tropica.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks, guys. Ed, yes, that precipitate, especially in a hot summer, is pretty ikky.

Naja002, I did use the Flourish for a while as well. No real complaints about it. There was a little bit of precipitate in it after a while though.

By the way, on the last 500ml bottle of the relabeled (good word Ed) Tropica, it was a different color - not clear, more like dull red with some precipitate in it. It didn't look very healthy. But it worked OK.
 

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I am working with a plant nutrition guy here at UC Davis to make a gnarly trace that's got similar good qualities of both products, and the cheaper cost and dry weight shipping of CMS.

Greg Watson will sell it once we have a batch made.
This will make plants redder, I know folks wonder and I have as well, it's not due to Fe for the red coloration in this product I plant on. That much I will tell you.

It's going to be mix of 75% DTPH chelators(strong, same as TMG, except that's just for the Fe, the product I have will have nothing but DTPH for all metal nutrients) and Gluconate 25% again, for all the trace metals.

It'll likely be about 5X cheaper than TMG, more than CMS, but a nice middle range cost that's still 5x cheaper than anything else.

And less shipping cost.
I like TMG and will keep using it till I get this product finished.
I have to have it made specifically and it's not that easy to do.

1 lb of dry powered will be about 50$ and make about 30-40 liters.
So it's actually cheaper by about 8-10X.

And shipping will be much cheaper and fast awesome Greg Watson serivce and sales of other ferts we all need and love:)

Probably summer 2007,.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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That would be awesome. I am using generic trace mix right now, and I was thinking of getting my TMG, but no one seems to sell it locally, so I was going to try Flourish, but maybe I'll just wait for your formula, Tom.
 

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Tom,

Will the trace mix be invert-friendly? I've heard stories from some SFBAAPS folks that the CSM+B may have caused some shrimp deaths.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I know you like TMG, Tom. Noted that several years ago. Flourish is OK but not quite as good as Tropica, IMO. I'll look forward to hearing more from you. In the mean time, I guess I am stuck with paying 70 bucks for TMG..
 

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Is the TMG that much better? I might switch over from Flourish when my bottle runs low.
 

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Tom,

Will the trace mix be invert-friendly? I've heard stories from some SFBAAPS folks that the CSM+B may have caused some shrimp deaths.
Well, CMS has been used for many years without issues, and shrimp die for reasons other than anything to do with traces.

So youer standard needs to be how is it that other folks use CMS and do not have issues with their shrimp?
While other folks do?

Is it reasonable to assume that it's due to the CMS or not?
No, it's not, shrimp die for iother reasons quite unrelated to anything to do with plants or ferts.

The amount of metal will be similar to Tropica's, which near as anyone has ever told, does not have any issues.

Some claim CMS's copper content is killing their shrimp, that's baloney.
It takes a lot more than that to kill shrimp.
TMG has a lot more copper than Seachem's Flourish, which IMO is too low in Cu.

Whether a product has copper or not is not the issue, the issue is always about the dosage. Caffine is quite lethal to humans at higher dosing.
There's just not enough evidence to show that it's due to CMS etc. Chelators reduce toxicity also, so does organic matter and humics etc, but it does not remove the toxicant. It just binds it and prevent it from entering into the plants/fish etc.

The other issue is very low alkalinity will increase the toxicity of trace metals, again, if there's less organic dissolve matter, less KH, no chelators, then the toxicity will go up.

But if all you have is one tank to compare to, that's hardly proof when other folks have the same product and dose it and have the same shrimp etc.

The levels are reduce in the product I have, but those issues will follow any trace mix when used incorrectly.

I have a company that will chelate the product from the metal sulfide compounds and the ratios I want, and then I buy a ton of it to sell to folks.

Ratios will be close to Tropica's, more Fe namely and different chelators and a few more very trace metals and a few other organic goodies I'm not telling what they are.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Is the TMG that much better? I might switch over from Flourish when my bottle runs low.
Anthony, buy a 500ml bottle and try it. In an established aquarium, I have always found it to be reliable and to promote nice greens and reds. Leaf quality seems to be better with TMG. The comparison is all qualitative rather than quantitative.
 

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Just did. There's too much positive talk about it, and the fact that tom is trying to mimick it says alot. I've always considered Flourish to be a so so trace product, and csm+b always gave me problems.
 

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Getting back to the original ?, I would assume that the pond flourish is the same, if anything its a little more concentrated so you would just have to add less at a time. An email to Seachem Im sure will confirm you issue. I use both flourish and CSM+B. I use the flourish in my 29 along with extra iron. And the CSM+B in my 55 no extra iron needed. I am going to try the CSM on the 29 when my auto doser runs dry next time. Here is a pretty neat chat that I found somewhere. I dont know how he arrived at the numbers or what he did to analyze but Im not to impressed with the TMG based on these numbers. Flourish seems more comprehensive then all the others

Fertilizer Comparison
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Getting back to the original ?, I would assume that the pond flourish is the same, if anything its a little more concentrated so you would just have to add less at a time. An email to Seachem I'm sure will confirm you issue.
Bigstick, thanks for responding to that part. I was thinking of emailing Seachem but then thought "why would they say? It's to their benefit to sell smaller amounts of 500ml at better prices..." Maybe I am paranoid ;-)

Gpodio's chart is a good one, isn't it.
 

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That table, it shows a lot of numbers, but doesn't explain visual effects of the different products. We can see that TMG has lower values of some of the key nutrients, but for some reason, results are better to the naked eye regarding the product's effect on plant growth, etc.

How did he get the numbers? The labels, or did he run all the stuff through an ICP or AA?
 

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Well Tom, you certainly have my interest piqued for this new trace mix. I'm sure SWOAPE would be willing to buy a bunch when it is available. I never was impressed with CSM+B, for the same reasons people have already mentioned.

How much influence does your EI system have on the new trace mix? Is it possible to mix this trace mix with macros?
 

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On the Seachem web site there are dosing directions for both Pond Flourish and regular Flourish. Pond Flourish used to be a lot stronger. Let me go check.....

Alright it looks like Pond Flourish is about 3.3X stronger than regular Flourish.

Recommended dosage for the Pond product is 10 ml per 400 gallons and for Flourish it's 10 ml per 120 gallons.
 
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