[Ozymandias]

so setting up a 40br and decided to build a sump for it so i can have another tank to play around with. I do need some help picking our a good pump and overflow (would prefer not to drill so was thinking a HOB over flow)

 

[Fish_wiz]

I would recommend drilling at all costs. I've used overflow's in my reefs in the past and even the best ones are prone to problems. I had an overflow on a 40B reef and hated it, drilled my next 75 tank. But, if you cannot, the best you can buy is the CPR overflow with the aqualifter pump, if they make them anymore. Its been years since my last one. But it utilizes the aqualifter to pull air out of the U-tube when there is power, so after a power outage, its is self-starting. Otherwise normal U-tube overflows will not always self start after power outages.

For return pumps, my personal favorite in terms of price and flow rate are Quiet-One pumps. I've used the 3000 series for years. But I've heard good things about ehiem, Rio, Via-Aqua, and those new fancy DC variable pumps.

 

[Kathyy]

I wouldn't want to drill either, it's scary, but it is really worth it to have a drilled tank. Go all the way and make a beananimal overflow that is quiet and super safe. That's 3 holes you must drill plus any for the return.

Reef Central has a plumbing calculator to figure head and friction loss but if you go with something that can pump 10-20x the volume per hour you will be fine so look for about 600-1000gph. My 2 pumps add up to 2300gph and I have been happy with the flow in my 180 gallon tank for instance. I have had very good luck with cheap Rio pumps and they come with a number of useful attachments too. I don't know if there are DC pumps suitable for smaller tanks but that will be my next pump purchase as the pumps use more electricity in the big sumped tank. The main pump is a Laguna and has been fine for the past 3 years. The Rio is 2 years older and hasn't given my any trouble either. Haven't lost any Rios yet and it's been more than 10 years with the brand.

If you go HOB then do consider modifying it into a herbie which has one full and quiet siphon and one dry emergency siphon as it is much quieter than a drain modification because there is zero turbulence. Either buy a big 2 drain HOB overflow or drill a hole on the side of the HOB and install another bulkhead. A U tube overflow will start after pump is off if siphon is present. Pushing lots of water through means bubbles blow through, if there isn't enough flow then bubbles will collect and eventually the siphon will be lost. I've had the Eshopps and some other type and prefer the one without the added divider on the bottom that the Eshopps has. CPR must have the aqua lifter pump working or they will lose siphon. I don't know how reliable they are, you would have to search for failure rates.

 

[DaveK]

If at all possible, drill the tank. However if that can not be done, the only external overflow I would use is a Lifereef overflow. You can see them here - prefilter box, siphon box, overflow box, siphon overflow, Eurobrace, Euro-brace, Euro-tank Yes, they cost about double what the CPR overflows cost, but it's worth it.

CPR overflows, even with an aqualifter pump, have multiple design defects, which leads to major problems. First they are impossible to clean because they can't be taken apart. They are prone to clog because you can't clean them, and they easily trap air bubbles. Because of this, sooner or later, you will have a flood. I speak from personal experience here. I originally had a CPR overflow and after multiple floods, parts breaking, I replaced it with a Lifereef overflow.

 

[Ozymandias]

thanks for the suggestions, i'm in norther VT and it can be hard to find pre-drilled tanks, would a glazer be able to drill it a regular 40br?

 

[ichy]

get a hand drill and order a diamond hole saw off Amazon or eBay for about $5.00
Come with me on my adventure. My hole saw came today, planning on drilling and building an external bean.

If you add up the cost and are handy I figure I'm saving a lot of money going with the drilled.
here are the hole saw sizes

1/2" SCH 80 TxT Bulkhead Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 51mm/2"
B - 70mm/2.75"
C - 32mm/1.25" (Installation hole size)
Use our 35mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation.

3/4" SCH 80 TxT Bulkhead Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 59mm/2.32"
B - 71mm/2.79"
C - 41mm/1.61" (Installation hole size)
Use our 42mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation.

1" SCH 80 TxT Bulkhead Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 65mm/2.55"
B - 73mm/2.87"
C - 48mm/1.88" (Installation hole size)
Use our 48mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation.

1 1/2" SCH 80 TxT Bulkhead Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 90mm/3.54"
B - 82mm/3.22"
C - 64mm/2.51" (Installation hole size)
Use our 65mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation.

2" SCH 80 TxT Bulkhead Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 103mm/4.05"
B - 81mm/ 3.18"
C - 81mm/3.18" (Installation hole size)
Use our 85mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation.



1/2" ABS Bulkhead Slip X Slip Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 44mm/1.72"
B - 43mm/ 1.69"
C - 27mm/1.06" (Installation Hole Size)
Use our 30mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation

3/4" ABS Bulkhead Slip X Slip Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 52mm/2.04"
B - 50mm/1.98"
C - 34mm/1.33" (Installation Hole Size)
Use our 35mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation

1" ABS Bulkhead Slip X Slip Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 68mm/2.67"
B - 63mm/2.48"
C - 42mm/1.65" (Installation Hole Size)
Use our 45mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation

1 1/2" ABS Bulkhead Slip X Slip Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 86mm/3.38"
B - 73mm/2.87"
C - 59mm/2.32" (Installation Hole Size)
Use our 60mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation

2" ABS Bulkhead Slip X Slip Dimensions (see diagram)
A - 98mm/3.85"
B - 73mm/2.87"
C - 72mm/2.83" (Installation Hole Size)
Use our 75mm Diamond Coated Glass Drill Bit for DIY installation

 

[slythy]

thanks for the suggestions, i'm in norther VT and it can be hard to find pre-drilled tanks, would a glazer be able to drill it a regular 40br?

Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff

Get a kit, or go with a full bean animal setup, but diy gl[censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored]s is a good start. Had i thought more ahead i would have drilled my 40B but when i buy my 125 in a couple years when my fish needs it, I will be drilling a synergy reef full bean animal overflow in it.

 

[alpha1172]

honestly drilling is not hard at all, if your nervous get some scrap glass to practice on.

most glass shops wont drill a tank for you, sometime a smaller local fish shop will do it, none will be responsible if the tank breaks though. years ago i paid 25$ per hole . now i drill my own. Bit from gl[censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored]s drilled 20-25 holes with the same bit now

 

[Freemananana]

Definitely drill it if at all possible.

If not, an eShoppes overflow is my suggestion. The idea that a U-tube isn't self priming is false. The CPR design relies on a pump and could fail, resulting in failure of the overflow. Either way, I would couple them with a float switch in the display tank that activates a relay that runs the return pump. That way, the return shuts off if the overflow clogs/breaks.

I've used siphon based overflows and overflows with the aqualifter. One worked and the other didn't. The aqualifter is not very strong. This is just my personal experience. YMMV.

Return pump is easy. Get one that is roughly 500-600 GPH and plumb a ball valve inline with the return. Should leave you with 10x tank overflow at your head height and some adjustment, in most cases. I'd probably throttle it back substantially.

 

[Bobbybills]

My first reef tank 20 years ago had an overflow which I had glued on a 1/4" fitting in order to start the siphon. My current tank is drilled with internal overflows and I did the same in order to purge air to allow the siphon to start before the level rose above the smooth weir and sucks fish down. I have been considering some form of venturi on the return line into the tank so that when the pump starts it sucks the air out of the overflow fitting (turned down 90). My thinking was that this would continue to suck air up and out of the return line to reduce the amount of air that went down to the sump, and if water flowed along with the air it would not matter since it would just return back to the display tank. It should have an air check valve so that on shutdown, the venturi line would not act as a drain.

Has anyone ever tried this instead of a air pump to purge air? Does anyone think that it would work?

As far as my return pump, bought a variable speed DC model that starts slowly and even has a dry shutoff feature. I do have a ball valve between the pump and the tank but that is for maintenance, not flow control. On an AC model, closing down the valve is the same as adding more back pressure from head (height of return back to tank) so there is no issue with restricting an AC pump within reason, IMO.

 

[ichy]

My first reef tank 20 years ago had an overflow which I had glued on a 1/4" fitting in order to start the siphon. My current tank is drilled with internal overflows and I did the same in order to purge air to allow the siphon to start before the level rose above the smooth weir and sucks fish down. I have been considering some form of venturi on the return line into the tank so that when the pump starts it sucks the air out of the overflow fitting (turned down 90). My thinking was that this would continue to suck air up and out of the return line to reduce the amount of air that went down to the sump, and if water flowed along with the air it would not matter since it would just return back to the display tank. It should have an air check valve so that on shutdown, the venturi line would not act as a drain.

Has anyone ever tried this instead of a air pump to purge air? Does anyone think that it would work?

As far as my return pump, bought a variable speed DC model that starts slowly and even has a dry shutoff feature. I do have a ball valve between the pump and the tank but that is for maintenance, not flow control. On an AC model, closing down the valve is the same as adding more back pressure from head (height of return back to tank) so there is no issue with restricting an AC pump within reason, IMO.

Doesn't the beananimal handle all that stuff

 

[Freemananana]

Doesn't the beananimal handle all that stuff

Yes, it does, depending on your design. There are many factors that determine the startup time of the system, before it switches to a full siphon.


As for the comment about a venturi on the return to suck air, I did that on mine after my aqualifter was a complete bust. It was hit or miss. The venturi only works in one direction. I put my venturi on a bypass that T'd off from my main return. It joined back up near the spray bar to return to the tank. It ended up flowing backward through the venturi because water flows the path of least resistance. In order to get the flow I wanted, I had dialed my valve in such a way that the venturi didn't work. Strange concept, but the venturi DOES work if you plumb it correctly (I did not). I found a guy on here who has one on his design and it works well.

 

[Bobbybills]

Doesn't the beananimal handle all that stuff

If you have the room behind an established aquarium to construct one, no problem. I have never installed one so I take everyone's experience as a yes. And with two 1" overflow holes on the rear of my tank, one on each side, impossible to do inside my tank.

May I ask does full siphon in the beananimal eliminate air from being driven down with the water? In my set up, with the air tube at the high point in the overflow, exterior to the tank, siphon now starts instantly, but continues to draw air down although silent. Without the air tube, full siphon draws the same amount of air, it just take a while to establish and is noisy until that point. And if flow is not dialed in perfectly, loses siphon then restarts, sort of like our guest toilet that I set my watch too.

The other question I have is this. Does the outflow have to be reduced for the beananimal not to draw air, or is that just for noise reduction? And if the outflow is reduced, does the return flow have to be reduced as well so that the level in the tank stays steady?

So the original poster is considering the siphon tube over the rim, that is why I asked if anyone had tried the venturi to the return line inside the tank where the outflow into the tank is at it's strongest.

Bump:

As for the comment about a venturi on the return to suck air, I did that on mine after my aqualifter was a complete bust. It was hit or miss. The venturi only works in one direction. I put my venturi on a bypass that T'd off from my main return. It joined back up near the spray bar to return to the tank. It ended up flowing backward through the venturi because water flows the path of least resistance. In order to get the flow I wanted, I had dialed my valve in such a way that the venturi didn't work. Strange concept, but the venturi DOES work if you plumb it correctly (I did not). I found a guy on here who has one on his design and it works well.

I figured that a check valve would be needed to prevent that, but wondered if the flow had to be at a certain volume or pressure to draw air even with a check valve installed. I was considering stepping down the return fitting from 3/4 to 1/2 in order to increase pressure at the point right before the pipe ends.

If you have any reference to the person who had success, much appreciated.

 

[Kathyy]

Look up DIY Mame, it uses a venturi to keep siphon. There was a thread on The Barr Report about an actual Mame that wasn't working, might be some insights as to where the venturi needs to be placed to work properly.

Puzzled as to why people think U tube siphons don't work. Both ends are underwater so when pump is off siphon is maintained. One loses siphon if bubbles collect in the tube. Bubbles collect if there is insufficient flow and bubbles aren't blown out the other side of the U tube.

If air is still going down the drain then raise water level up a bit more is all and I don't see why you need to do that if the water surface is fairly calm.

HOB overflows are expensive too. I'd add it up, buying bulkheads and drills and having glass cut might be cheaper and would certainly be a cleaner build and you would learn a lot. Look through this thread, really good read.

 

[Bobbybills]

Kathyy, much gratitude for the reference. It looks like I was on to something without knowing that one actually existed. For the original poster, who wanted an overflow tube that would self prime on power up, perhaps just a small powerhead connected to the top of the U tube would do the trick.

In my case, I need to evacuate as much air as I can from the outflow tube to reduce the amount of turbulence in the sump. That is why I asked if anyone had done this for a drilled return to avoid on open air source and yet allow the tube to reach full siphon quickly.

I will try this to see. Again, thank you for the references. Helps a lot.

 

[Ozymandias]

Thanks for all the info. I'm tempted by the eshoppe because it mean don't have to to drill and can set up the 40br before i get the sump done, as i do need to move some fish that my parents are keeping for me in NJ up to my new place in northern VT. for the eshoppe should i go with the PF-300 or the PF-800?

 

[slythy]

Thanks for all the info. I'm tempted by the eshoppe because it mean don't have to to drill and can set up the 40br before i get the sump done, as i do need to move some fish that my parents are keeping for me in NJ up to my new place in northern VT. for the eshoppe should i go with the PF-300 or the PF-800?

I honestly think you will regret drilling it. All of the HOB overflow manufactures say if you have the chance to drill it, drill it.

 

[Fish_wiz]

Thanks for all the info. I'm tempted by the eshoppe because it mean don't have to to drill and can set up the 40br before i get the sump done, as i do need to move some fish that my parents are keeping for me in NJ up to my new place in northern VT. for the eshoppe should i go with the PF-300 or the PF-800?

Drill it, I used a generic overflow almost identical in design to the Eshoppe PF-300 before my CPR and hated it. Noisy and did not keep siphon a few times during water changes. Another member earlier suggested Lifereef, which I forgot about, those are the Cadillac's of overflows but still sub-par to drilling.

I understand drilling may put you back in your time crunch but trust me, you'll ever look back once you drill it. Freshwater or marine, if I'm utilizing a sump, I will got to all costs to drill it.

 

[Ozymandias]

ok if i do drill what size hole/hole saw and bulk head should i be aiming for with a 700gph pump (was thinking this or something in the same gph range)

 

[Fish_wiz]

Good rule of thumb is each 1" bulkhead will flow 600gph max. I had 2 1" bulkheads on my 75 gallon reef with a quiet one 3000 (about 800 gph with no head height) with no issues and I did not use a valve on my return line.