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Some Possibly Controversial Questions About Micronutrients

4815 Views 38 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  mistergreen
I've been re-evaluating my stock dry fertilizers and I think I am shying away from Plantex CSM+B and more towards Miller's Microplex, so I'll start with the easy, non controversial question:

If I am using PPS-Pro which recommends 80 grams per liter of Plantex CSM+B, what would be the recommended amount if I switched to Miller's Microplex? I have feeling this involves looking at the guaranteed analysis and doing some good old fashioned math but I hope I can spare myself the trouble and see if someone has figured this out already.

Now, the controversial bits:

Have we been too quick to embrace Plantex CSM+B? Have we been accidentally taken for a ride? Don't parse that as merely being inflammatory, let me explain.

There are a couple of threads around here that compared the ingredients and their concentrations of both Plantex CSM+B and Miller's Microplex. One had a little more of this than the other and one had a little less of that than the other, in the grand scheme of things it was probably a wash but I recently thought of something.

Recently, as in the 1970's, it was determined that Nickel is an important micronutrient. It was never a major concern because it is quite abundant in the Earth's crust and is easily deposited by the action of wind and rain. In fact it took a few generations of wheat and rye grown in an almost sterile environment to deplete the nickel in a test plot before a nickel deficiency could even be observed and studied but then, plants only need precious little, about 80 nanograms per gram maximum. It turns out it is pretty important to plant fertility, namely seed viability and yield and also appears to make nitrogen metabolism more efficient. Again, its superabundance on Earth doesn't make it much of a concern like carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and sulfur.

Then it hit me all of the sudden, I don't grow my plants in plots outside and nor do I use soil (something I'm on the verge of changing anyway). I don't know that nickel exists in my substrates of choice. I can't say for sure if it is in the potting soil that we like to make our mineralized topsoil from. It appears absent in every other commercial aquarium fertilizer except for Seachem Flourish which has a whopping .0000036% (36 ten millionths of a percent) which is 4,500 times more nickel than any plant needs if I have my math right. It's also in Miller's Microplex. Their registration with the Washington Dept. of Agriculture shows it to have 1 ppm of nickel. If we do the conversion assuming they do mean 1 mg/L of Nickel then that works out to 12,500,000 times the nickel recommended for healthy plant growth. I have a feeling I'm not getting how this guaranteed analysis thing works and I understand its a pretty flawed way to list the components of a fertilizer anyway.

My other concern is Cobalt. This one is vitally important for shoot development and thus ethylene synthesis which drives that process. This is of more importance to terrestrial plants but to complete their life cycle the vast majority of our water weeds need to grow out of the water where the presence of ethylene would really matter a lot. I noticed that cobalt is conspicuous by its absence in Plantex CSM+B but present in Miller's Microplex and once more in Seachem Flourish.

Are these really that important? They sound like it to me from what I've read so far. Am I making much ado about nothing? Is it perhaps good to consider but not fret over because perhaps they do make it in our tanks one way or another? What do ya'll think?

I have a feeling this may require the brain of Tom Barr as I feel myself rapidly falling out of my depth...
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I'd look at your plants to tell you what you're missing. If the plants have problems processing nitrogen or new shoots aren't developing and you've provide the appropriate, macros & miros then yeah, I guess you're missing nickel & cobalt.

I'm pretty sure these super mirco elements are in your tap water and you replenish your supply every week soooooo, I don't think there's an issue.
You're most likely correct. I have no reason to suspect these things are in insufficient amounts, but as I attempt ripariums and emersed culture more and more in earnest, I begin to think of these things more and more. I do want to see their flowers and I want to sow their seeds one day. Especially as I get into rarer, more interesting aquatic Aroids. I'm probably just being neurotic.

I wrote that initial post from the point of view of a worried consumer who is awash in information. Still, I would love to hear what others have to say :icon_smil!
If you feed your fish most fish foods have nickle and cobalt in small amounts. If feed everyday you probably have more then enough cobalt and nickle in your tank
If you feed your fish most fish foods have nickle and cobalt in small amounts
I was wondering that and I'm sure there must be some quantity of it in there. If I google it hard enough somewhere, someone has probably posted how much is in X brand of fish food.
Its on the lables i think i know cobalt is in abundance i think its used to bring out stronger colors in fish
My emersed plants flower for me and I'm using regular CSM+B.
I think you gots bigger issues to fret over.

CO2, light, making sure the nutrients are not limiting ...like the macro nutrients etc.........

You know.......unless your methods are such that you make the others independent(eg non limiting)...then you cannot test one thing, say traces by themselves etc. You realize this don't you?

Fish/food waste etc, tap etc.........decaying plant parts........all are potential sources of the minute amount of trace metals.

You got bigger fish to fry.

Regards,
Tom Barr
I think you gots bigger issues to fret over.

CO2, light, making sure the nutrients are not limiting ...like the macro nutrients etc.........

You know.......unless your methods are such that you make the others independent(eg non limiting)...then you cannot test one thing, say traces by themselves etc. You realize this don't you?

Fish/food waste etc, tap etc.........decaying plant parts........all are potential sources of the minute amount of trace metals.

You got bigger fish to fry.

Regards,
Tom Barr
No,no, I'm not limiting anything. At least not on purpose that I'm aware of. Everything looks fine in the submerged tanks and I'm quite pleased with my two new emergent tanks. It's one of those things when you try something new, in my case, emergent growth. You start doubting yourself and wondering, "Could I be doing more? Could I be doing better?"

You're all correct and I realize with time comes wisdom and that one doesn't need to do too much. Just the usual neurosis and needing some hand holding and a cuddle. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten this far if I had it all wrong. Just a little wrong here and there :wink:.
I think CSM+B became the "standard" trace element mix because it is cheap, easy to obtain, and it works. I doubt that anyone over the years has argued that it is the best possible trace mix, and many people swore that the old Tropica trace mix was much better. But, Tropica changed their line of plant fertilizers, people everywhere began dosing non-limiting amounts of all nutrients, and interest shifted to other areas. Tom was going to get an improved trace mix on the market a year or so ago, but that seems to have run into roadblocks. So, we use CSM+B.
Id be more worried about a boron OD from csm+b then not enough nickle and cobalt.

But I do understand where your coming from. I do it all the time with my shrimp tanks and my cat tanks.. What should I do now???
That is something I have failed to consider. An excellent point I shall research on my own. Thank you.
I found to get what I felt was more complete based on several sources of water, was to add a small portion of calcium to csmb as well as a significant adjustment to iron. This has worked very well for me and my customers.

Millers has always been tempting, but the price has not.
I am also a Tropica Master Grow and Miller's MicroPlex fan. I approached this problem in looking at the major micronutrients (Fe and Mn) then using CSM+B and MnSO4 to clone Tropica (the best micronutrient mix I've ever used).

Anyway, if you're interested, here's how to DIY the Good Shi... er, Stuff: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7134-How-to-make-DIY-Tropica-Plant-Nutrition

500mL opaque container
3063mg Plantex CSM+B (~ 3/4 tsp)
438mg MnSO4.H2O (~ 1/16 tsp)
1500mg FeDTPA 10% (~3/8 tsp)
Fill the rest with DI water. Leave some space for some acid or glutaraldehyde if you want
Shake it up!

Makes:
Code:
	         Good Sh...    Tropica Master Grow
Fe	 	   0.07%	0.07%
Mn 		   0.04%	0.04%
B 		   0.007%	0.004%
Cu 		   0.0005%	0.006%
Mo 		   0.0003%	0.002%
Zn 		   0.002%	0.002%
As noted by Hoppycalif and Plantbrain, if you're not at the point where the texture of plants, "sheen" as Plantbrain calls it, and other minute things, it's better to focus on macronutrients and trimming techniques first. But it reads like you are at the tweaking stage, ukamikazu. Try out the Good Sh....; I think you'll dig it.
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A very interesting amending recipe. Thank you.
Nice recipe Wet.. Can CSM be replaced with Miller Micro in the same weights? I have been using Miller Microplex lately and I find it super effective and very easy to use.
Nice recipe Wet.. Can CSM be replaced with Miller Micro in the same weights? I have been using Miller Microplex lately and I find it super effective and very easy to use.
I use the same recipe a wet, almost to a tee. but if Millers is that much better, are you going to start carrying it Orlando?
So its a powder? Even better. Now I cant wait to try it. Which is rediculous since I dont seem to have any issues :) Sorry for my ignorance, I just took the advice of the masters and never really looked into micros that much.
Its a bright green powder, super fine. Its much finer than any other salt we have.. I will try to get you some pictures.I will also be bringing a ton of various other salts that only veteran folks are willing to give a try:)
This recipe can be made for pennies, and last a long time.
Remember to measure the KH carefully, then chose how to dope up the CMS or Miller's with whatever else.

Softer KHs: DTPA and the general micro
Maybe Fe Gluconate

Med, just the micro and the DTPA Fe
Maybe a little EEDHA

Harder : more DTPA and micros+ EDDHA (careful, it'll turn the whole tank red if you are not careful, use sparingly).

Rather than be like a politician and lie to you, I just found it was not really going to make a significant difference in plant growth to make my "own blend" and then try and hock it for more $.
Cheap and efficient this way.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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