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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
from reading around the TPT it looks like its recommended to have identical metering valves to help balance the pressure. so i just want to make sure i got it right before i dive into what looks like a almost impossible task to find parker 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC valve. any knowledge how to make this happen is appreciated . the set up will be a current tank (co2 reactor) with regulator placed directly inside the cabinet and the other tank will be about 12 feet away. this tank will probably have reactor but i might just use diffuser so there will be different pressure between the two. also if any holding the above mtntioned metering valve and willing to sell it let me know. here is the picture of my regulator.
thank you

 

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Not seeing too much action on your post and no help on getting the needle valve, but sometimes a bump will attract some better help?
I might be one to question the need of matching the valves. I think of the needle valves as just adjustable holes so I'm not sure of the need for them to match? For appearance it might look more uniform but for that I might want to have the needle valves under or near each tank and each bubble counter so I could see the changes as I adjusted them. For pressure and flow, I don't see the two diffuser methods being close enough to matter matching the valves.
For the diffuser, I'm thinking there will be a problem to get a diffuser taking higher pressure to work off the same reg pressure as a reactor taking low pressure. Only time I've run two tanks, I used reactors on both.
Just some thoughts and maybe some others have done what you are talking?
 

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Three ways would get gas to both but then there would not be a way to fine tune the flow for each tank. Gas is like water in that it will go mostly out the spot that gives the least resistance. So if one had 4 feet of tubing with a reactor and then 12 feet with a diffuser, there would be no way to get any to go to the higher pressure diffuser end.
And most of us will need to get a different amount of gas to each tank as all tanks will vary a bit. Two needle valves are almost a requirement.
 

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Three ways would get gas to both but then there would not be a way to fine tune the flow for each tank. Gas is like water in that it will go mostly out the spot that gives the least resistance. So if one had 4 feet of tubing with a reactor and then 12 feet with a diffuser, there would be no way to get any to go to the higher pressure diffuser end.
And most of us will need to get a different amount of gas to each tank as all tanks will vary a bit. Two needle valves are almost a requirement.
So then there's no real reason to get two exact same metering valves. It's purely aesthetics.
 

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from reading around the TPT it looks like its recommended to have identical metering valves to help balance the pressure. so i just want to make sure i got it right before i dive into what looks like a almost impossible task to find parker 2F-H3L-V-SS-TC valve. any knowledge how to make this happen is appreciated . the set up will be a current tank (co2 reactor) with regulator placed directly inside the cabinet and the other tank will be about 12 feet away. this tank will probably have reactor but i might just use diffuser so there will be different pressure between the two. also if any holding the above mtntioned metering valve and willing to sell it let me know. here is the picture of my regulator.
thank you

could be easier to forget about the needle valve you currently have and just source 2 identical new ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
thanks guys it makes sense that you shouldn't need identical valves so i guess i just buy some smc valve and do some testing they are cheap enough to play around with it looks like they now make some low flow ones ( here is more if anybody is interested http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1025601-needle-valve-inexpensive-option.html) now i just decide if i use diffusers oor rectors for both tanks i love reactors and have them too its just i was planing to use HOB for small tank this time around.
 

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Yes, you really do need valves with similar flow characteristics, the closer the better. Pairing an AS-1000 with a HR series will end badly. People that claim that it's not necessary to have at least similar valves have never tried it. And with the H3L, you've got super low flow. Using anything other than a similar HR, or maybe a Hoke 1600 or Brooks ELF, will make things really difficult, if not impossible.

Some more information. It's just that there are a large number of variables to differentiate one valve from another. Cv is certainly one of them. So is orifice size. And needle taper. And number of turns from fully open to fully closed. And whether fully open and fully closed are actually 100% open and 100% closed. And possibility (an actual certainty in some valves) of internal leakage, depending on manufacturing quality and quality and condition of seals. And there's more.

And then there's the environment itself, which will further dictate how the valve functions and what pressure is necessary for ideal flow. Different tank sizes, methods of diffusion, distance traveled, how leak-resistant the system is, whether the regulator can keep up the same exact maximum pressure across multiple valves when one changes its flow rate (when, for example, you turn the handle)...

The point is that there are a whole lot of variables that will affect how a valve works. You can eliminate some of them by using identical valves, but even then ...one concrete example is when one valve needs a higher pressure, for a variety of reasons, than the other valve does. Let's say 25 psi, and it's working great. But at 25 psi, with even the tiniest fraction of a turn open (or even fully closed, going back to that 100% comment from earlier), valve #2 is still allowing too much flow. And dropping the psi down to 10 or so, at which point valve #2 works well, is just too low for valve #1, even when fully open. Speaking from experience, it happens. Even when using identical valves, it can happen.

So, while I urge everybody to experiment on their own, if they'd prefer not to, listen to the people who speak from experience. And, for those people who want to contribute but are relying on educated guesswork or second-hand information, for the love of all things holy, please say so! Your opinions are valid, but you need to be clear that they're opinions. It sucks when somebody relies on advice from somebody who doesn't speak from experience but fails to mention so, and goes on to waste a lot of time and money. I apologize for the rant. It seems that currently there are a lot of "veterans" who either aren't around or aren't commenting - which happens - but it leaves a gap that people, with good intentions, try to fill, and sometimes they give some really crappy advice, and there's nobody around to correct it. This really isn't about this thread, and this probably isn't the place to mention it. Sorry, I got sidetracked.

Anyway, the safest bet would be to use identical valves. I completely understand wanting to keep the one you have - it's awesome - but in my opinion, going with a ten-dollar valve, regardless of printed flow rates, to pair it with, is a waste of time and money.
 

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So, while I urge everybody to experiment on their own, if they'd prefer not to, listen to the people who speak from experience. And, for those people who want to contribute but are relying on educated guesswork or second-hand information, for the love of all things holy, please say so! Your opinions are valid, but you need to be clear that they're opinions. It sucks when somebody relies on advice from somebody who doesn't speak from experience but fails to mention so, and goes on to waste a lot of time and money. I apologize for the rant. It seems that currently there are a lot of "veterans" who either aren't around or aren't commenting - which happens - but it leaves a gap that people, with good intentions, try to fill, and sometimes they give some really crappy advice, and there's nobody around to correct it. This really isn't about this thread, and this probably isn't the place to mention it. Sorry, I got sidetracked.

.
Kevmo , that is a much needed rant & justified !!
 

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It has been my experience when using one reg to feed two tanks that two valves are definitely needed and they should both be good enough quality to serve the major purpose. That major purpose is to fine tune the gas flow. If you have a needle valve that can't work over a low range of pressures from 10 to 50PSI, you do have a junk valve. I fully agree that a junk valve should not be used. Not for anything at all that you want to have fun doing!!! I have little experience with junk valves after working with the first needle valve I got, I've never tried to use the junk/untried/ untested types we are reading about. Two good valves can be adjusted while even one junk type may never get right.
Reading things with a bit of skeptical thinking can head off a lot of trouble. We know that even the "high grade precision" needle valve sold on some commercial sets are junk so don't base the decision just on what you can read.
 

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I think kevmo took the long way in describing exactly what rich was saying. Fluids (yes gases are fluids) take the path of least resistance. I know this is an extremely unpopular position on this forum, but I believe most headaches on multiple output CO2 systems would be solved if each branch from the CO2 had its own regulator, solenoid, needle valve and PH controller. It's too much of a balancing act that may never be obtainable as rich was pointing out. One system requires more psi, so you crank it up, well now you have too much flow on the other, so you crank down the flow control, which raises the pressure and increases the flow to the first tank. I haven't even started on what happens if you do a heavy trim. Why bother with the headaches? Either get individual CO2 setups, or connect both tanks to a sump to ensure you get your target ppm in both tanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, you really do need valves with similar flow characteristics, the closer the better. Pairing an AS-1000 with a HR series will end badly. People that claim that it's not necessary to have at least similar valves have never tried it. And with the H3L, you've got super low flow. Using anything other than a similar HR, or maybe a Hoke 1600 or Brooks ELF, will make things really difficult, if not impossible.

Some more information. It's just that there are a large number of variables to differentiate one valve from another. Cv is certainly one of them. So is orifice size. And needle taper. And number of turns from fully open to fully closed. And whether fully open and fully closed are actually 100% open and 100% closed. And possibility (an actual certainty in some valves) of internal leakage, depending on manufacturing quality and quality and condition of seals. And there's more.

And then there's the environment itself, which will further dictate how the valve functions and what pressure is necessary for ideal flow. Different tank sizes, methods of diffusion, distance traveled, how leak-resistant the system is, whether the regulator can keep up the same exact maximum pressure across multiple valves when one changes its flow rate (when, for example, you turn the handle)...

The point is that there are a whole lot of variables that will affect how a valve works. You can eliminate some of them by using identical valves, but even then ...one concrete example is when one valve needs a higher pressure, for a variety of reasons, than the other valve does. Let's say 25 psi, and it's working great. But at 25 psi, with even the tiniest fraction of a turn open (or even fully closed, going back to that 100% comment from earlier), valve #2 is still allowing too much flow. And dropping the psi down to 10 or so, at which point valve #2 works well, is just too low for valve #1, even when fully open. Speaking from experience, it happens. Even when using identical valves, it can happen.

So, while I urge everybody to experiment on their own, if they'd prefer not to, listen to the people who speak from experience. And, for those people who want to contribute but are relying on educated guesswork or second-hand information, for the love of all things holy, please say so! Your opinions are valid, but you need to be clear that they're opinions. It sucks when somebody relies on advice from somebody who doesn't speak from experience but fails to mention so, and goes on to waste a lot of time and money. I apologize for the rant. It seems that currently there are a lot of "veterans" who either aren't around or aren't commenting - which happens - but it leaves a gap that people, with good intentions, try to fill, and sometimes they give some really crappy advice, and there's nobody around to correct it. This really isn't about this thread, and this probably isn't the place to mention it. Sorry, I got sidetracked.

Anyway, the safest bet would be to use identical valves. I completely understand wanting to keep the one you have - it's awesome - but in my opinion, going with a ten-dollar valve, regardless of printed flow rates, to pair it with, is a waste of time and money.
thanks for this post even though i don't really like it because it means looking for pretty rare valve its exactly what i and i think many others need to know before jumping into assembling and buying bunch of fittings.

Bump:
I think kevmo took the long way in describing exactly what rich was saying. Fluids (yes gases are fluids) take the path of least resistance. I know this is an extremely unpopular position on this forum, but I believe most headaches on multiple output CO2 systems would be solved if each branch from the CO2 had its own regulator, solenoid, needle valve and PH controller. It's too much of a balancing act that may never be obtainable as rich was pointing out. One system requires more psi, so you crank it up, well now you have too much flow on the other, so you crank down the flow control, which raises the pressure and increases the flow to the first tank. I haven't even started on what happens if you do a heavy trim. Why bother with the headaches? Either get individual CO2 setups, or connect both tanks to a sump to ensure you get your target ppm in both tanks.
i know what you saying it already crossed my mind the might be easier and better in long run to just get another regulator setup. now i just have to explain that to my wife :)
 

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My first go at two tanks off one reg was using a really cheap with a really good needle valve. The second tank was only about 4-5feet away and as I adjusted one to get more flow the flow to the first would drop.
I was able to sort of get the flow corrected to each but it was a major pain and then the elcheapo would drift off and the whole thing was a basic nightmare that I didn't do for long. When switching out the cheap, I wound up with a Fabco NV-55 paired with a NV-55-18 so I did have both valves very close to the same. But still as I opened one, the flow to the other would go down. But it was manageable for a time because the valves were good ones that stayed where I set them. That prompted me to move to another larger tank. I then had a 75 close to the CO2 tank and a 125 on about 40 feet of tubing even though both had nearly the same valves. I found this was not something I could ever get to work very well. Even though the two needle valves were the same, when used on long and short tubes to each tank, the tubing did things that I did not like. It's not something I could see but I think the 40 feet of line would "balloon" and build up a significant amount of CO2. That left things difficult to manage as that build up of CO2 between the solenoid at the CO2 tank and the needle valve at the tank would continue to flow after flow was cut by the solenoid.
Just not something I spent much time on adjusting, sorting and fixing. I went to a second full set for the larger tank.
While, in theory, one can save money buying one set and using for multiple tanks, one can also take all the fun out of the game. I can make far more money by using the time for productive work than I can save with fighting that battle. I enjoy my work far more than I enjoy fussing with things that don't work very well. One has to be honest on what he enjoys and what he doesn't.
That will help decide where to spend the time and effort.
 

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thanks for this post even though i don't really like it because it means looking for pretty rare valve its exactly what i and i think many others need to know before jumping into assembling and buying bunch of fittings.

Bump:

i know what you saying it already crossed my mind the might be easier and better in long run to just get another regulator setup. now i just have to explain that to my wife :)
You want (need) two identical valves. They doesn't mean you have to continue using the valve you already have. Just source 2 identical valves. They just have to work; they dont have to be ultra rare! Any of the often recommended valves work and are simple enough to find so you can purchase 2; or you might be able to find 2 identical rare valves (that are just not the same you currently have)

I run a co2 tank with one regulator and 4 separate outputs with 4 separate needle valves. Based on advice received from this forum; I used identical fabco needle valves and have had 0 problems (other than leaks from my system which can only be blamed on me and not the valves). So I dont have any real world experience trying to make non-identical valves work. But I can say from my experience that its relatively simple to get multiple outputs working correctly when using the same valves. Again, no need to source the same valve you already have and no need to buy a second regulator setup unless you're goal is to brag about having some super rare regulator and spending big $!
 

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What solenoid is on that reg? If it is a two way that has a 10/32 screw blocking the top port (like a clippard mouse with the top hole) I may have a 10/32 x barb fitting laying around... Then you could just inline a metering valve rather than change all your plumbing

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What solenoid is on that reg? If it is a two way that has a 10/32 screw blocking the top port (like a clippard mouse with the top hole) I may have a 10/32 x barb fitting laying around... Then you could just inline a metering valve rather than change all your plumbing

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What you're describing is a three-way, two position (3/2) valve. In a normally closed solenoid, the third (top) port is open to port 2 when the solenoid is off, and port 1 (going to the cylinder) is closed. When the solenoid is on, port 3 is closed off and port 1 is open to port 2. So you can't run a line off of port 3, because the only time it's open, CO2 is cut off. It's usually plugged because you don't want it open to allow back pressure from port 2 to push through the solenoid and out port 3 (when the solenoid is off). In the case of a non-threaded exhaust port, a check valve must be used to prevent this.

Regardless, the plumbing isn't the problem the OP has. However the rig is plumbed, he's asking about how similar or identical two metering valves have to be in order to be able to regulate flow well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You want (need) two identical valves. They doesn't mean you have to continue using the valve you already have. Just source 2 identical valves. They just have to work; they dont have to be ultra rare! Any of the often recommended valves work and are simple enough to find so you can purchase 2; or you might be able to find 2 identical rare valves (that are just not the same you currently have)

I run a co2 tank with one regulator and 4 separate outputs with 4 separate needle valves. Based on advice received from this forum; I used identical fabco needle valves and have had 0 problems (other than leaks from my system which can only be blamed on me and not the valves). So I dont have any real world experience trying to make non-identical valves work. But I can say from my experience that its relatively simple to get multiple outputs working correctly when using the same valves. Again, no need to source the same valve you already have and no need to buy a second regulator setup unless you're goal is to brag about having some super rare regulator and spending big $!
i know i don't have to get the same valve i have now but i tought it would be easy to get one well not anymore when i got mine i paid about $70 for it these days ebay is raided and there is nothing anymore. so i might give it a try to find one in for sale section but i suspect there is not much chance so i'll probably buy all the parts necessary fom smc to build the setup and see how i like it the worse case scenario i wasted $35 and and will go back to my original valve and buy one more regulator from Co2art or someone here on TPT.
 
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