[Immortal1]

New thread - catchy title - pretty similar to another great thread :grin2:

Many of you have either followed along with the Custom Micro Mix Thread or contributed. Lately I have been thinking it would be nice to have a thread where we could put our vast knowledge together AND make it easy to find useful details quickly. I put together some basic data to try and figure out why some odd things were happening in my tank. I figured I would compare that data to what other really nice tanks were doing. Interesting results from only a small data set followed. Showed it to @Greggz and @burr740. Gregg brought in some input from @Ken Keating1 and began working on something useful.

I am hoping that this first post will get updated on a regular basis. Will add / edit as things progress.

With regards to getting the information generated, the preferred method would be to fill out the spreadsheet that many of us are already using - see post #27 of this thread.

It is available here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CI7FdUKHGv7CgfA3lRJZdxESN07exBsu

What we have so far. I will change this as more information is generated. "Anyone is welcome to participate, and looking forward to seeing more"
Several have mentioned substrate, so it has been added.

I - Inert............... E-Eco Complete............ A - Active...................D - Dirt................F - Flourite

Specific comments

 

[Maryland Guppy]

Are we to use a form someone has made or just a post?
I'll have to contribute so as to aid in controversy! >

 

[Greggz]

Are we to use a form someone has made or just a post?
I'll have to contribute so as to aid in controversy! >

It's not quite ready yet.

But check your PM shortly, I will send you a link, and would like to get your thoughts.

 

[Immortal1]

Are we to use a form someone has made or just a post?
I'll have to contribute so as to aid in controversy! >

Gregg is working on fine tuning the form. He posted it to a Google drive but I can't seem to figure out how to save / upload an edited file back to the Google drive.
And to add another wrinkle - I can't seem to edit a file that I posted :icon_mad:

 

[Grobbins48]

Looking forward to checking this out- should be a great community resource from the sounds of it!

 

[Greggz]

Looking forward to checking this out- should be a great community resource from the sounds of it!

OK.......here is the sneak peak.

Since this is meant to be a collaborative effort, why not collaborate now?

So here is the incubator version. Open to ideas. Once we get it finalized, then we need a methodology to collect data and update it. Have an idea and that is being tested now.

So what do you think? Useful?

 

[Grobbins48]

Is the goal to collect data as a snapshot in time, trends over time, or the individuals most updated dosing?

I do like harmonizing dosing results based on each individual specific water change amount- will really help to compare.


For micros- do you account for water changes, or because many of them are shorter lived do we not worry about them? Been thinking about possible micro accumulation recently. I understand that after 5 weeks or so it levels out, just not sure which micros actually stick around for a while or if it matters.

 

[Immortal1]

Is the goal to collect data as a snapshot in time, trends over time, or the individuals most updated dosing?

I do like harmonizing dosing results based on each individual specific water change amount- will really help to compare.


For micros- do you account for water changes, or because many of them are shorter lived do we not worry about them? Been thinking about possible micro accumulation recently. I understand that after 5 weeks or so it levels out, just not sure which micros actually stick around for a while or if it matters.

Good question. My guess would be a snapshot of what is working for you now. Maybe you find out what you were doing really didn't work that well so you make a change and the new amounts are reflected in the spreadsheet. I think the goal would be to find what works for you given your specific situation.

Example, Bob in North Texas has really hard water - like 90 calcium. He is stuck using this. What dosing could work for him based on other successes in that Ca range?
Example, What Steve is dosing looks pretty normal but for some reason things arn't working. His data show some odd ratios between ___ and ____.


Don't know the answers yet. Ask me in a few months :grin2:

 

[Maryland Guppy]

I've downloaded the item, but until a week or so goes by I can't say what my dosing will be.
Don't think my initial new tank dose will count since it brought zero RODI up to my standard parameters.
In a week or so I can update.

 

[Ken Keating1]

Is the goal to collect data as a snapshot in time, trends over time, or the individuals most updated dosing?

My understanding is this is all open for suggestions, so have at it!

The difficult part of this is trying to obtain useful information but not acquire such levels of detail that it puts off everyone from using it. My experience with spreadsheets there's always a start, and it's not going to be perfect at first, but over time it gets better and better.

 

[Greggz]

Well note the column that show "V1".

You start a new dosing scheme, now it's "V2".

So we can show changes over time.

As to water change amount, I posted mine as standard 50% EI water change. I think that has to be the standard (for now!).

And honestly, I am not sure where this leads??

But I do know that I would like to see a bunch of other folks dosing at a glance. If nothing else, should generate some interesting discussion/thoughts once we get some data. And who knows, maybe learn something from each other.

The point is that maybe collectively we can spot some trends...ratios....or something else that helps us all.

 

[Ken Keating1]

Good question. My guess would be a snapshot of what is working for you now. Maybe you find out what you were doing really didn't work that well so you make a change and the new amounts are reflected in the spreadsheet. I think the goal would be to find what works for you given your specific situation.

Example, Bob in North Texas has really hard water - like 90 calcium. He is stuck using this. What dosing could work for him based on other successes in that Ca range?
Example, What Steve is dosing looks pretty normal but for some reason things arn't working. His data show some odd ratios between ___ and ____.
:

I was thinking it may be helpful to show a few different mixes from the same individuals, but limit it to X amount of different mixes. And each mix design would have a brief remarks column. I have a couple of different mixes, but Mix A worked with these plants but not others, and Mix B was completely the reverse plant wise.

Other thoughts: Different spreadsheets for inert and soil based substrates?

Bump: Can the Micros be arranged alphabetically to match the tank parameters SS? It be much easier to find the nutrients as opposed to having to hunt for them.

 

[Maryland Guppy]

As to water change amount, I posted mine as standard 50% EI water change. I think that has to be the standard (for now!).

I'm out then I suppose. :crying:
Lazy sob I am, changing minimal water, only dosing what I think plants need and will consume. :grin2:
Now my heart is broken since I cannot be an adequate contributor to this thread. >

Admit it, you like the humor! :wink2:

 

[KZB]

Great idea on making thread. Nothing like having easy access to what everyone's dosing schemes are like. This will be very helpful.

 

[Rich Decatur]

Ohh man, and i just did a ton of work in a spreadsheet for something not as nice as this

 

[OreoP]

Thank you for starting this - will save me and others tons of time re-scanning various threads on dosing.

Suggestion: pH drop and source of Fe as there are several different Fe compounds to choose from.

 

[ipkiss]

OK.......here is the sneak peak.

Since this is meant to be a collaborative effort, why not collaborate now?

So here is the incubator version. Open to ideas. Once we get it finalized, then we need a methodology to collect data and update it. Have an idea and that is being tested now.

So what do you think? Useful?

If you're going to do a spreadsheet and put it into google drive, it got me thinking .. and like archimedes, my best ideas come in the bath... I digress

Because there's situations where people download and upload back, what if they overwrite someone's changes because two people downloaded at the same time and uploaded their respective outdated versions? (race condition)

And because if you just allowed anyone to download the entire sheet and modify, what if someone decides to nefariously modify someone elses parameters? Eh, it's just water parameters, who cares right? But in a more possible situation, what if someone accidentally erased a formula, etc.

and to prevent grief like this:

Gregg is working on fine tuning the form. He posted it to a Google drive but I can't seem to figure out how to save / upload an edited file back to the Google drive.
And to add another wrinkle - I can't seem to edit a file that I posted :icon_mad:

And because it's 2019 and everything is about the cloud, and because google has something created for this type of collaborative shenanigans,

So, you should make it a google sheets to begin with.
Gregg, or whomever, can host the sheet and then we all just get links to our sections, but not the front page or the entire spreadsheet.
This allows you to have a sheet or sections (maybe) for different members, allow only them to edit that sheet, set up references so that totals from their sheet gets pulled into the main front sheet with a nice 'totals' display, etc..
The main sheet can be shared too for select 'editors' so that the maintenance load doesn't all fall to the main person hosting the sheet.



The downside is that everyone needs a google account for the proper permissions to work, but I guess if you're uploading to a google drive, you probably need one anyway?
Of course if google folds, or if your internet is down, we'd be outta luck, but then we'd have bigger issues..

 

[Deanna]

Good idea. Let me throw my ideas to the team:

What are the ppm values: a dosing mix (if so, how often), target maintenance dosage ppm or accumulated ppm? Although there is no perfect way to present this, my preference would be to see an indexed presentation based upon targeted results of dosing, i.e.; the desired ppm of each nutrient (including CO2) that we are targeting to have in our tank at any given time ...assuming that this is not what is already being presented. This would eliminate any effect caused by quantity or timing of water changes. Doing it this way would allow us to figure out our own dosing schedules, e.g.; daily weekly 3x/week, etc and the quantity to dose.

I’m not sure that I’ve ever considered the importance of N:Fe, K or Mg:K (without Ca), but I view some important ratios, in addition to those listed, to be K:Ca:Mg and Fe:Mn.

Great start.

 

[Greggz]

If you're going to do a spreadsheet and put it into google drive, it got me thinking .. and like archimedes, my best ideas come in the bath... I digress

Because there's situations where people download and upload back, what if they overwrite someone's changes because two people downloaded at the same time and uploaded their respective outdated versions? (race condition)

Very good valid points. Give too many permissions, and pretty soon the document is toast.

After some tinkering around and testing yesterday, I am working on a new plan.

More to follow..................................

Bump:

Good idea. Let me throw my ideas to the team:

What are the ppm values: a dosing mix (if so, how often), target maintenance dosage ppm or accumulated ppm? Although there is no perfect way to present this, my preference would be to see an indexed presentation based upon targeted results of dosing, i.e.; the desired ppm of each nutrient (including CO2) that we are targeting to have in our tank at any given time ...assuming that this is not what is already being presented. This would eliminate any effect caused by quantity or timing of water changes. Doing it this way would allow us to figure out our own dosing schedules, e.g.; daily weekly 3x/week, etc and the quantity to dose.

I’m not sure that I’ve ever considered the importance of N:Fe, K or Mg:K (without Ca), but I view some important ratios, in addition to those listed, to be K:Ca:Mg and Fe:Mn.

Great start.

Deanna agreed on many points.

The problem is that right or wrong, the common vernacular for dosing around here is normal EI with 50% water changes. I would love to change everyone over to "target dosing". It removes water change percentage, total tank volume, and accumulation from the picture. But I don't think the planted tank world is ready for that...............yet!

And it will be easy enough for me to included additional ratios that folks would like to see. I'll add those to the master list.

 

[Deanna]

Deanna agreed on many points.

The problem is that right or wrong, the common vernacular for dosing around here is normal EI with 50% water changes. I would love to change everyone over to "target dosing". It removes water change percentage, total tank volume, and accumulation from the picture. But I don't think the planted tank world is ready for that...............yet!

And it will be easy enough for me to included additional ratios that folks would like to see. I'll add those to the master list.

OK, thanks. I'm out as well, as I've been moving away from EI. Might be a good idea to label the chart as "EI Based Parameters."