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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi everyone,
Long post, sorry! Thanks for your inputs in advance.

Contemplating mixing my own micro batch based on the work of @burr740 and guidance from @Greggz (thanks to both). Why? Because I like to go down the rabbit-hole!! Here is what I have received as the final version (for now):


Elements........Compound.........Joe's ppm
Fe DTPA........................................0.01
Fe Gluc..........................................0.05
MN.................MnSO4.H2O...........0.025
B.................Na2B4O7.10H2O.......0.027
Zn...................ZnSO4.7H2O..........0.023
Cu...................CuSO4.5H2O.........0.0019
Mo...............Na2MoO4.2H2O......0.001
Ni.....................NiSO4.6H2O........0.00025

Multiple questions (want to dose daily)
1. My pH remains under 6.7. Thinking about Fe DTPA (0.05 daily probably). Why use gluconate if it is only stable under pH of 4.5?
2. How much ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to add to avoid mold? Is there a formula somewhere? Vinegar?
3. Mix all together or keep separate?
4. Too much SO4? (considering I use sulfate salts of calcium and magnesium too)
5. Why do some people add CaCl2?
6. Some amounts in milligrams are miniscule when measured using the rotalabutterfly calculator!! How to measure even with a milligram scale? Make a concentrated solution with larger amounts and dose smaller volumes?

My tank (setup 3 months ago):
-16.75 gallons of water in a 20 long and canister and reactor
-RO water mineralized (Ca 20ppm and Mg 10ppm)
-GH 7
-KH 0-1 (K2CO3)
-pH ~6.2 before CO2 turns on and about 5.1 right before CO2 turns off (off-gassed 6.7) (all measured using a recently calibrated Milwaukee mc122)
-Over 50% plant mass at the moment
-Platinum soil with osmocote and clay underneath
-NO3 1ppm daily (KNO3), and the salifert kit reads at 2.5ppm usually at the end of the day
-PO4 dosing 3ppm (KH2PO4) daily and API kit reads about 1ppm toward the end of the day usually
-WRGB II 60cm lights

Currently dosing these amounts using csmb (daily)
Fe 0.02
B 0.0035
Mn 0.0057
Mo 0.0002
Zn 0.0011
Cu 0.0003


Thanks for all the help.

Omid


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Contemplating mixing my own micro batch based on the work of @burr740 and guidance from @Greggz (thanks to both). Why? Because I like to go down the rabbit-hole!! Here is what I have received as the final version (for now):
Eh, What's up Doc? Beautiful tank. I'm going to search to see if you have a journal. Just reading your water parameters has been helpful. I'm dosing gluconated Iron with a pH above 4.5. So now I have to look into that one.

I have a good almost to the miligram scale. It is really hard to weigh things just right. I don't know how the pharmacologists do it. But I think you're right. Make a solution out of the Mo and Cu that are hard to weigh and then dose that into your dosing solution. Actually they are all tiny amounts. Maybe you could use ratios for the rest. 200, 35, 57. 11.

I don't think you have to worry about the Sulfate. Barr says you can go up to 200 ppm on that. I still worry about them myself though. They probably add the CaCl2 because of this. I use Potassium Chloride sometimes.

Flourish Excel will preserve a solution for some months if kept refrigerated. My KH2PO4 solution went bad after too long a time. I do wonder about the chemicals reacting with the preservative. Wish I new some chemistry.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Eh, What's up Doc? Beautiful tank. I'm going to search to see if you have a journal. Just reading your water parameters has been helpful. I'm dosing gluconated Iron with a pH above 4.5. So now I have to look into that one.

I have a good almost to the miligram scale. It is really hard to weigh things just right. I don't know how the pharmacologists do it. But I think you're right. Make a solution out of the Mo and Cu that are hard to weigh and then dose that into your dosing solution. Actually they are all tiny amounts. Maybe you could use ratios for the rest. 200, 35, 57. 11.

I don't think you have to worry about the Sulfate. Barr says you can go up to 200 ppm on that. I still worry about them myself though. They probably add the CaCl2 because of this. I use Potassium Chloride sometimes.

Flourish Excel will preserve a solution for some months if kept refrigerated. My KH2PO4 solution went bad after too long a time. I do wonder about the chemicals reacting with the preservative. Wish I new some chemistry.
Thanks. I don't have a journal on the forums but have one on my computer! I'll wait to see if this tank goes in the right direction before posting a journal!

This hobby can be as complex as one wants it to be!

Omid

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Elements........Compound.........Joe's ppm
Fe DTPA........................................0.01
Fe Gluc..........................................0.05
MN.................MnSO4.H2O...........0.025
B.................Na2B4O7.10H2O.......0.027
Zn...................ZnSO4.7H2O..........0.023
Cu...................CuSO4.5H2O.........0.0019
Mo...............Na2MoO4.2H2O......0.001
Ni.....................NiSO4.6H2O........0.00025
I use Joe's micros recipes, too, and that looks very close to my numbers

Multiple questions (want to dose daily)
1. My pH remains under 6.7. Thinking about Fe DTPA (0.05 daily probably). Why use gluconate if it is only stable under pH of 4.5?
2. How much ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to add to avoid mold? Is there a formula somewhere? Vinegar?
3. Mix all together or keep separate?
4. Too much SO4? (considering I use sulfate salts of calcium and magnesium too)
5. Why do some people add CaCl2?
6. Some amounts in milligrams are miniscule when measured using the rotalabutterfly calculator!! How to measure even with a milligram scale? Make a concentrated solution with larger amounts and dose smaller volumes?
1. Stick to a mix of DTPA and gluc - I saw some plants perk up when i went from all DTPA to a mix of the 2
2. 0.5 grams per 500 ml
3. You can mix them all together without issue
4. Nope
5. Good question and one that gets debated; I've not seen it stated that Cl is a must as a trace so perhaps it comes down to personal preference (I don't use it)
6. I hear ya'....for Ni I get out a pair of tweezers and add one grain at a time

-WRGB II 60cm lights
Are those Chihiros lights? If so I'd like to hear about them
 

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Multiple answers
1. Fe gluc isn’t meant to be stable in the sense that it would precipitate, like ferric iron (which requires the various chelates to hang around for plant use and precipitation resistance). Gluconated iron is absorbed by plants very rapidly (within about a half hour). In fact, to test to see if you are using the right amount of Fe gluc, you make sure that your iron test reads the level you want for about a half-hour and then, after the half-hour, the reading should be zero.
2. Ascorbic acid: 1mg/1ml, potassium sorbate: 2mg/5ml
3. Mix all together
4. There are inconsequential level of sulfate in our trace mixes.
5. Chloride is a beneficial nutrient, but you don’t need much - I suggest maintaining a 3-7ppm level.
6. Make a ridiculously large batch (the salts are cheap). I make up about a gallon at a time and, further, in concentrate form. This way, you are measuring much larger and more easily managed (from a precision standpoint) portions of each salt. Of course, it will take several years to use it up. However, don't worry about that as the preservatives will keep it in good shape and you will probably be making new batches as you change your opinion on what the ratios should be (it's part of the rabbit-hole fun).
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Are those Chihiros lights? If so I'd like to hear about them
Thanks for the reply. Do you dose daily or every other day?

And yes I have a chihiros light. I'm overall happy with the performance. Prob not as good as T5HOs but I checked w the seneye PAR meter and got about 90-100 at substrate level.

Thanks
Omid

Multiple answers
1. Fe gluc isn’t meant to be stable in the sense that it would precipitate, like ferric iron (which requires the various chelates to hang around for plant use and precipitation resistance). Gluconated iron is absorbed by plants very rapidly (within about a half hour). In fact, to test to see if you are using the right amount of Fe gluc, you make sure that your iron test reads the level you want for about a half-hour and then, after the half-hour, the reading should be zero.
2. Ascorbic acid: 1mg/1ml, potassium sorbate: 2mg/5ml
3. Mix all together
4. There are inconsequential level of sulfate in our trace mixes.
5. Chloride is a beneficial nutrient, but you don’t need much - I suggest maintaining a 3-7ppm level.
6. Make a ridiculously large batch (the salts are cheap). I make up about a gallon at a time and, further, in concentrate form. This way, you are measuring much larger and more easily managed (from a precision standpoint) portions of each salt. Of course, it will take several years to use it up. However, don't worry about that as the preservatives will keep it in good shape and you will probably be making new batches as you change your opinion on what the ratios should be (it's part of the rabbit-hole fun).
Thanks for the reply. I did not know that Fe gluconate would get picked up so fast! I'm assuming by the time it starts precipitating, most of it is absorbed. Now the question becomes if the presence of PO4 in water column (I'm adding 3ppm daily and maintaining 1ppm) causes significant precipitation before Fe is picked up in half an hour.

Another question, do you use the same recipe? Do you dose daily?

Thanks

Omid
 

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Thanks for the reply. Do you dose daily or every other day?

And yes I have a chihiros light. I'm overall happy with the performance. Prob not as good as T5HOs but I checked w the seneye PAR meter and got about 90-100 at substrate level.

Thanks
Omid



Thanks for the reply. I did not know that Fe gluconate would get picked up so fast! I'm assuming by the time it starts precipitating, most of it is absorbed. Now the question becomes if the presence of PO4 in water column (I'm adding 3ppm daily and maintaining 1ppm) causes significant precipitation before Fe is picked up in half an hour.

Another question, do you use the same recipe? Do you dose daily?

Thanks

Omid
No precipitation,but it is always a good idea to dose PO4 and Fe separately. If your water is very hard, you can sometimes get cloudiness when adding salts if they happen to cause Ca or Mg carbonates to go into a supersaturated mode.

My recipe is different, but these variations are common as each of us has different approaches as well as considerations for other nutrients and plants that may be different. If you use Fe gluc only, then you should increase the gluc dosing along the lines of the test I mentioned, above.
 
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