[underwaterview]

hi Everyone,

Im running a fairly new +/- 25 gallon dirted, planted tank with some algae issues. I have a fluvial 3.0 thats on about 60% intensity for about 12 hours. Not many fish: 4 halfbeaks, 2 small loaches, 2 peacock gudgeon, 2 scarlet badis. Some amano shrimp (5) but I think they really didn't feel well until I added an aerator lately (maybe from soil affecting water?) although it has a fluvial 207. Anubias, java moss, Rotala, duckweed on top, lots of manzanita.

Now that the bubbles are going the shrimp more actively feed but they dont eat as much of the brown and green stringy algae, (they seem to at least eat some of the green) which I have a bit of both, on wood and the edges of Anubias leaves. Likewise my java moss has some fine brown algae on the lower stems, which the amano shrimp should start to help with more.

Ive seen excel flourish in my lfs and how nice their tanks look that use it. After googling I see its actually a biocide/hospital chemical and depending on who you ask, a bit dangerous, or at least its a full on chemical option.

What are peoples thoughts about using this, and what about for a short time only, the stopping? Or is it a regular thing almost always? I also ordered some wire bristle brushes for manual removal.

Thank you

 

[dornblaser]

Drop your lights to 6 - 7 hours, your photoperiod is really long.

 

[Blue Ridge Reef]

I won't use it in a shrimp tank. It has its uses and certainly kills algae, but it also kills everything that shrimp feed upon. https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...d-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde-az2w7 12 hours is a looong photoperiod. If running them that long, a siesta timed in to go dark for a period of the day might help.

 

[pauld738]

I agree that Excel in a shrimp tank is not good.

If you want to get rid of the algae on certain plants or wood you could spot treat with Excel though. Just remove the plant or wood in question from the tank, if possible. Use an eye dropper or something similar and apply to algae. Let sit for 10 minutes or so. Rinse off and put back in tank. You may have to repeat this. Understand that Excel usually kills mosses as well.

And I also agree that 12 hrs is a long time for lights to be on, especially in a new tank. In order to make that work you need everything going right, including having enough plant coverage. I love the siesta idea and have used it in my tanks as well. I even have a neo shrimp tank right now (pictured) that the lights are off for a full day.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Blue Ridge Reef]

I pretty much only use it as spot treatment these days. 10 minutes is about right on wood or rock, but I usually give no more than 45 seconds or so to plant leaves. Thick leaved stuff such as Anubias, Java Fern and Buce can take it longer, but it can melt the leaves right off of thinner "fragile" leaved plants.

 

[pauld738]

Yes YMMV for sure on the use of Excel!

Thanks for that clarification @Blue Ridge Reef

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Tiger15]

I won't use it in a shrimp tank. It has its uses and certainly kills algae, but it also kills everything that shrimp feed upon. https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...d-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde-az2w7 12 hours is a looong photoperiod. If running them that long, a siesta timed in to go dark for a period of the day might help.

If you are supplementing food for the shrimp and don’t plan on multiplying them, then using excel to control algae is safe. Seachem claimed that excel is safe for shrimp if dosed according to recommendation, and I have used it occasionally in my low tech tank with shrimp and snails, and I have never observed death in my shrimp and snail as a result. Safe does not necessarily mean harmless though. Regular use of excel may not kill shrimp right away, but I speculate it may stop them from multiplying or shorten their life span.

As for the claim that Glutaldehyde is a source of carbon, there are no data that proved it is actually happening, and even if it does, it is minuscule as the recommended dosage of excel is about 2 ppm, which is equivalent to no more than 2 ppm CO2 assuming one to one conversion. The amount is no more than the atmospheric can deliver by aeration.

 

[underwaterview]

thank you everybody.. ya its not something I want to commit to, a chemically maintained tank.. mylfs has a bunch of amanos in a tank they use it on but they're hard to find..

I just ordered a set of stainless wire bore brushes that may help twist it off..

Does anyone have opinions on h202? I was wondering then found this video:

nice video but some of it seems a bit dangerous to me? I suppose I may remove my worst offender log and spray/soak w h202.

thanks everyone

 

[Tiger15]

Some say peroxide is a cheaper alternative to excel and is safe if you don’t exceed 1 mil per liter dosage as recommended in the video.

I spray 3% peroxide on all exposed plants, hardscape, filter pipes, heater and underside of glass top as a regular maintenance during water change when the tank is drained. I never dose or spot treat with peroxide underwater though, but when I refill the tank some residual peroxide is left submerged but I never monitor the quantity.

 

[underwaterview]

even safe for fish?

 

[pauld738]

If you are up for some historical perspective on the subject, here's a link discussing aspects of H2o2 use.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/93074-hydrogen-peroxide-algae-control-2.html

There's probably a ton more on this site, but it goes over a lot of the aspects of using H202 in a planted tank.

 

[underwaterview]

thanks

 

[ahem]

I use excel in my tank with shrimp and have not had problems from it. And there is enough algae there for them to eat. Excel does seem to control algae however. I use it at the daily dosage on the bottle, I do not multiply the dosage like others do.

 

[en7jos]

Hi @Underwaterreview and all,

I stopped daily dosing Excel (at exact Seachem recommended dosing) in my shrimp tanks after considering the advice of many on this forum and coming to the conclusion that the benefit (not sure I was actually seeing any) did not outweigh the risk. Since stopping daily dosing, algae doesn't seem to be any better or worse. The much higher day #1 dose on the bottle does seem to be effective against BBA, from my experience, especially if spot dosed directly midway during a water change with low water level and no water movement (filter off) for 10 mins or so. The daily dosing at the lower dose does not seem to have any additional benefit regarding algae control in my tank vs just using the one off higher dose when needed. Some have suggested that it is the daily dosing that potentially has a long term, cumulative negative impact upon some / many / all livestock. That seems to make sense to me.

The question is where your priorities lie. If it is having a pristine planted tank and wanting to throw everything possible at it to achieve that, then feel free to use Excel daily following Seachem's instructions. On the other end of the spectrum, if your priority is growing a healthy, breeding shrimp colony, then most would agree to avoid using Excel. And in the middle is the grey area that many people will dip in and out of.

nice video but some of it seems a bit dangerous to me? I suppose I may remove my worst offender log and spray/soak w h202.

Search for "Mark's Shrimp Tanks H2O2" on YouTube - another useful video on using H2O2. Mark recommends regular use of hydrogen peroxide in shrimp tanks with various benefits including controlling hair algae. I've been using it in my shrimp tanks following his suggested dosing (1.5ml per UK gallon = 4.5 litres) and can confirm that it has been perfectly safe for shrimp, MT snails (including tiniest babies), Christmas moss and chilli rasboras.

Some say peroxide is a cheaper alternative to excel and is safe if you don’t exceed 1 mil per liter dosage as recommended in the video.

1ml per litre seems a pretty high dose. That would be 4.5ml per UK gallon, so 3x higher dosing than Mark recommends in the above video. He isn't specific about excatly how and why he came to his recommended 1.5 ml /UK gallon dose for shrimp tanks, but he says he experimented with increasing doses until he noted unusual behaviour in his shrimp (at 2ml/UK gallon from memory), and then backed it off to the 1.5ml / UK gallon from there. He also talks about having a strong enough dose to kill off the lower level organisms you want rid of, but not the higher level ones you wish to keep.

H2O2 seems pretty effective at this 1.5ml dose and so it seems hard to justify the need to triple that dose up to 4.5ml. The stronger the dose, the higher the level of organisms that it will harm.

Another possible option to investigate: Google Sochting Oxidators. These are small devices that you fill with H2O2 and slowly release it into the aquarium water over the course of several weeks with the idea of boosting oxygen levels in water and generally keeping the tank healthy (still looking for specifics about what and how they are supposed to do this). I've been trialing them in my shrimp tanks for the past few weeks; the shrimp seem happier than ever, but I can't conclusively attribute that to the oxidators. At worst, they form a handy table for my newborn shrimplets to feed upon which makes them easy to watch (two little guys sat up there now feasting on some BacterAE!) and proves to me their safety in a shrimp tank.

Note all the advice to use food grade hydrogen peroxide. I haven't been able to source this here in Singapore, but the 'pure' 3% H2O2 from my local chemist seems fine. The point to note that some hydrogen peroxide products could have other things added, so make sure you only use pure H2O2.

 

[Tiger15]

I use excel in my tank with shrimp and have not had problems from it. And there is enough algae there for them to eat. Excel does seem to control algae however. I use it at the daily dosage on the bottle, I do not multiply the dosage like others do.

If you still have enough algae left, your low daily dosage may not have reached therapeutic level to root out all algae. Even though Seachem never admit it, I believe the initial high dosage is to kill existing algae, and the low daily dosage is to prevent their return.

I do it the other way in my high tech tank. I don't dose daily but dose the initial high dosage (5x) after weekly water change. In fact, since I dispense the full amount before filling up the tank, the transitional dosage can be as high as 15 to 20X. I have not observed fish death as a result, including fry, but I have no shrimp in it to know the impact.

In my low tech shrimp tank, I dose 2x excel occasionally. I have not observed shrimp or snail death, but neither can I root out persistent green thread algae. I am nervous but will increase the dosage to see how it goes.

 

[ahem]

If you still have enough algae left, your low daily dosage may not have reached therapeutic level to root out all algae. Even though Seachem never admit it, I believe the initial high dosage is to kill existing algae, and the low daily dosage is to prevent their return.

I do it the other way in my high tech tank. I don't dose daily but dose the initial high dosage (5x) after weekly water change. In fact, since I dispense the full amount before filling up the tank, the transitional dosage can be as high as 15 to 20X. I have not observed fish death as a result, including fry, but I have no shrimp in it to know the impact.

In my low tech shrimp tank, I dose 2x excel occasionally. I have not observed shrimp or snail death, but neither can I root out persistent green thread algae. I am nervous but will increase the dosage to see how it goes.

It is certainly not a scientific observation but I am starting a new tank, had algae growing on some dying plants (got some klunkers that didn't do well and had to remove). I was astounded that for a new tank, hair algae appears, turns grey, and then completely disappears all within 48 hours. I think the disappearance was from dosing excel but who knows. I am running a very lean tank at the moment. But my experience with algae like that, is it comes and stays for a while normally.

The only algae I am getting with Excel dosing is very small amounts of GDA, GSA, and few spots of diatoms. Which I want some since I have shrimp.

 

[Tiger15]

Hi @Underwaterreview and all,

1ml per litre seems a pretty high dose. That would be 4.5ml per UK gallon, so 3x higher dosing than Mark recommends in the above video.

Note all the advice to use food grade hydrogen peroxide. I haven't been able to source this here in Singapore, but the 'pure' 3% H2O2 from my local chemist seems fine. The point to note that some hydrogen peroxide products could have other things added, so make sure you only use pure H2O2.

Mark's recommendation is probably safer, but is it enough to control algae? Here is another recommendation on H2O2 treatment.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/203684-one-two-punch-whole-tank-algae-treatment.html

Both authors backed off from their initial recommended dosage, highlighting the uncertainties of H2O2 treatment. H2O2 is so volatile and reactive that attempt to attain any target concentration is difficult.

I only spot treat with H2O2 above water, never dose underwater because I cannot find scientific data to back up the right dosage and how to achieve it.

I have confidence in and dosed Glutaldehyde regularly because scientific data on its toxicity are widely available which I have compiled below. Note that Seachem recommended initial high dosage is equivalent to 2 ppm, and daily low dosage 0.4 ppm.

Toxicity of glutaraldehyde
96h acute Bluegill sunfish LC50 = 11.2 mg/L
Bluegill sunfish NOEC = 10 mg/L
48h acute Oyster larvae LC50 = 2.1 mg/L
96h acute Green crabs LC50 = 465 mg/L
96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
Daphnia magna NOEC = 0.32 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L
Algal inhibition Selenastrum subcapitata IC50=1 to 1.8 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L
96h O. mykiss (Trout hatch rate) IC50 = 1.82 mg/L
96h C. dubia (Daphnia reproduction) IC50 = 4.7 mg/L

*EC=Effective concentration; IC=Inhibition concentration; LC=Lethal concentration;
NOEC=No observed effect concentration

 

[allexx46]

Lots of great advice here. Please look into what algae use for food. Phosphate build up from the fish food is the main issue in most tanks. When I started religiously using Seachem Phosguard in my filters most of my algae stopped growing to the point that the cleanup crews could keep up with it. I use anacharas in my sump to absorb nitrate and both H2O2 and Excel kill it. This solution works for me.

 

[ahem]

Mark's recommendation is probably safer, but is it enough to control algae? Here is another recommendation on H2O2 treatment.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/203684-one-two-punch-whole-tank-algae-treatment.html

Both authors backed off from their initial recommended dosage, highlighting the uncertainties of H2O2 treatment. H2O2 is so volatile and reactive that attempt to attain any target concentration is difficult.

I only spot treat with H2O2 above water, never dose underwater because I cannot find scientific data to back up the right dosage and how to achieve it.

I have confidence in and dosed Glutaldehyde regularly because scientific data on its toxicity are widely available which I have compiled below. Note that Seachem recommended initial high dosage is equivalent to 2 ppm, and daily low dosage 0.4 ppm.

Toxicity of glutaraldehyde
96h acute Bluegill sunfish LC50 = 11.2 mg/L
Bluegill sunfish NOEC = 10 mg/L
48h acute Oyster larvae LC50 = 2.1 mg/L
96h acute Green crabs LC50 = 465 mg/L
96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
Daphnia magna NOEC = 0.32 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L
Algal inhibition Selenastrum subcapitata IC50=1 to 1.8 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L
96h O. mykiss (Trout hatch rate) IC50 = 1.82 mg/L
96h C. dubia (Daphnia reproduction) IC50 = 4.7 mg/L

*EC=Effective concentration; IC=Inhibition concentration; LC=Lethal concentration;
NOEC=No observed effect concentration

H2O2 is a great spot treatment for hair and clado type of alga, second to none really as it readily "burns" it. I even notice that some algae types that RCS don't normally eat, they sometimes eat after it's been "BBQ'd" with H2O2.

That is some great data on Glutaldehyde! Very very generally it looks like crustaceans may have some tolerance to it while alga are much more sensitive perhaps explaining the effect it seems to have of minimizing algae in the tank.