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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I’m about to move, and am about to buy tanks. I think I have just enough space to buy 4 2.5s, which I can devote to two different shrimp lines, one cross of those lines, and the fourth for breeding fish. What I want to do, is amass a number of different shrimp from different breeders of the same line (ex bloody mary shrimp) in order to have a fair effort at genetic diversity, breed them until they breed true, and then cross them with a similar color shrimp line that also breeds true.

I know this has been done before, with Lindsey Savage’s “Savage Red” shrimp (Bloody Mary x Painted Fire Red) [Side note: if anybody has pictures of the savage reds, please post them because I don’t know what they look like]. So I know it’s possible. But can this be done with blue shrimp as well? For example, I think Blue Dream shrimp from the Shoko line, could be crossed with Blue Jelly shrimp from the Blue rilli line; an “Ocean Blue” line if you will. I’ve only done a preliminary search and the only source I’ve found says that I’ll have red culls because of the Blue rili ancestry.

Would it be fair to give myself a year to acquire and pare down two lines (Blue Dream and Blue Jelly OR Bloody Mary and Painted Fire Reds) to get closely true breeding lines before attempting a cross? I’ve kept shrimp before, but I didn’t have the time to cull the population so there were inevitably wild types. I know I can speed up the process by running the tanks at 78 F with a high protein diet. I’m wondering if an every two month culling process (6 culls overall) would be enough time between culls and also enough generations to at least get things to breed more true.

I know that crossing the lines will probably result in a lot of differently colored offspring. And I’m okay with working on the cross line for a while.

Finally, calling in the cavalry:
@Zoidburg
@ElleDee
@Blue Ridge Reef
 

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This seems like a very ambitious project to undertake in 2.5 gallon tanks? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 4 2.5's. I feel like it would be hard to get a stable colony of any size going in such limited space, and a high risk of losing a whole line from those random events that can wipe out even bigger tanks.

Not to send anyone to a different forum, but theres an old one on shrimpspot that might have some info of interest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
This seems like a very ambitious project to undertake in 2.5 gallon tanks? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 4 2.5's. I feel like it would be hard to get a stable colony of any size going in such limited space, and a high risk of losing a whole line from those random events that can wipe out even bigger tanks.

Not to send anyone to a different forum, but theres an old one on shrimpspot that might have some info of interest.
Eh, I've kept tanks for 15 years, I think I can handle a pico tank or 4 ;) . Tanks would be unheated and using sponge filters with plants and get the standard weekly water change of .5 gallon or so.
 

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I've crossed lines. Usually you end up with brown or muddle the established lines, or revert to wild genetics within a few generations. The lines take years to stabilize. Not a handful of generations, dozens and dozens of generations. You might get a stable line years down the road.

Another thing, our understanding of their genetic lines is incomplete. Their colors don't mix the same way palette colors do. You don't get a green shrimp by breeding a blue and yellow one together. The genes for color in tissue, color in shell, opaqueness, etc is as far as I know, undocumented.

But I've been out of it for 2 years. Things might have changed drastically in that time.
 

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I've crossed lines. Usually you end up with brown or muddle the established lines, or revert to wild genetics within a few generations. The lines take years to stabilize. Not a handful of generations, dozens and dozens of generations. You might get a stable line years down the road.

Another thing, our understanding of their genetic lines is incomplete. Their colors don't mix the same way palette colors do. You don't get a green shrimp by breeding a blue and yellow one together. The genes for color in tissue, color in shell, opaqueness, etc is as far as I know, undocumented.
When you said you crossed lines, were these controlled crosses or you just had shrimp from two lines in a tank and they interbred freely or you were more intentional about your breeding pairs and selection criteria? Because that could make a huge difference.

Ok. @ichthyogeek, I mentioned a little about this the last time we talked about shrimp genetics, but if I were you I would try and get to an F2 population of shrimp and see what you end up with. That is, make an F1 population that has a parent from each line (easiest way to do that is to have a tank with all the females from one line and all the males from the other) and then interbreed that population, removing the original parents. The F1 generation may be not what you want at all visually - like, literally none are the right color - but you need them for their genes only. They are a stepping stone to the F2 where you may see some interesting trait segregation that you could select for. You want as many shrimp as possible in that F2 generation so you have the greatest chance of finding usable shrimp.

But definitely report back what kind of shrimp you're seeing in your F1 and then your F2 if you do it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
When you said you crossed lines, were these controlled crosses or you just had shrimp from two lines in a tank and they interbred freely or you were more intentional about your breeding pairs and selection criteria? Because that could make a huge difference.

Ok. @ichthyogeek, I mentioned a little about this the last time we talked about shrimp genetics, but if I were you I would try and get to an F2 population of shrimp and see what you end up with. That is, make an F1 population that has a parent from each line (easiest way to do that is to have a tank with all the females from one line and all the males from the other) and then interbreed that population, removing the original parents. The F1 generation may be not what you want at all visually - like, literally none are the right color - but you need them for their genes only. They are a stepping stone to the F2 where you may see some interesting trait segregation that you could select for. You want as many shrimp as possible in that F2 generation so you have the greatest chance of finding usable shrimp.

But definitely report back what kind of shrimp you're seeing in your F1 and then your F2 if you do it.
Also interested in controlled crosses!

@ElleDee , Yup! I'm doing F1s and F2s! Because I'm trash at remembering things, let's say that hypotehtically I do Bloody Mary's (BMs) and Painted Fire Red (PFRs). I'll probably do a F1 of M BM x F PFR in addition to M PFR x F BM and raise them in the same tank.

It might be time to fire up a tank journal...once I've moved.
 

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Also interested in controlled crosses!

@ElleDee , Yup! I'm doing F1s and F2s! Because I'm trash at remembering things, let's say that hypotehtically I do Bloody Mary's (BMs) and Painted Fire Red (PFRs). I'll probably do a F1 of M BM x F PFR in addition to M PFR x F BM and raise them in the same tank.

It might be time to fire up a tank journal...once I've moved.
Yay, it's good that you're doing the F1 cross both ways. It might not make a difference, but if there are any sex linked traits (if that's a thing in shrimp, idk) then you'd have your bases covered. I think once you get to an F2 it'll be time to reevaluate the project. Hopefully you have something to work with and you can define your breeding goals/selection criteria and go from there. If your F2 is all garbage, you'll have to think carefully about how and if you want to continue.

Be sure to pick the brain of any breeder you get your parent lines from if you get the chance to. They might have some good insight and advice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Be sure to pick the brain of any breeder you get your parent lines from if you get the chance to. They might have some good insight and advice.
Oh definitely! I know I can pick the breeder’s brains here, but hopefully I can do the same w Aquabid and everything!

And if I get a bunch of cull F2s...I’ve been looking into a pet Pim cat tbh....
 
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