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Problem diffusing Co2 into 450ltr tank.

1363 Views 12 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  tazcrash69, 
D
Hi,

I have a jewel 450 Aquarium which is an upgrade on two four foot aquariums I used to have. The tank came with the new T5 lighting (or maybe they are called t8's, long thin ones) x 2 tubes to which I have added two compact T5 tubes. This gives about 160 watts all told. I have a JBL Co2 system which adds Co2 by day and shuts off at night. To help the fish I purge any Co2 from the tank at night by running a single airstone for 6 hours. Unlit hours are 10 in total. During the day the lights come on for 8 hours on a weekday and 11 hours weekend days.
I currently have Anubia's, Vallis, Wysteria, Crypts, Elodea and Polysperma and all are thriving. Co2 is not registering much off the 'blue' mark, it still shows blue. I add tabs to the substrate (which is a very fine 2mm gravel) and once a fortnight some liquid fert. When I set up the tank 6 weeks ago I also added some dwarf amazon swords. They did well at first and produced lots of root and lots of green leaves with runners. Six weeks down the line and while all other plants are happy the swords are shedding leaves and look to be dying.
How do I dentify the cause and how can I increase the diffusion of Co2 into the aquarium. I'm at about 10 bubbles a second but don't feel the diffuser is doing very good. It's one of those circular balck ones about 6 inches high.
I've heard the ladder type is best or the new glass ones.
Also how can I determine what's wrong with a sick plant. Is there a guide as you would get to diagnose a sick fish?

Thanks,

Dog.
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G
If you have a canister, you can either buy or make your own(search DIY forums) reactor.
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I
if you don't want the trouble of DIY-ing, you can get the "cyclo" diffusers from dennerle, these are the some of the best diffusers money can buy.

link: http://www.dennerle.de/EN/HG26UG06.htm
http://www.dennerle.de/EN/HG26UG06.htm
they're can be considerably more expensive but are VERY effective. you get no wastage of CO2 and dennerle products have always been very well built.

it might not fit on your jewel's internal filter though. and either way the jewel's internal filter is definetely not enough to generate the water movement around the plants throughout the tank (owned a jewel b4). Getting a new external canister would help alot, especially if your going to stock a number of fishes.
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I
oh and about your amazon swords. 160 W for 450L is too low. the recommended amount of light is 1 watt per litre. (can you give us the dimensions of your tank too?)

amazon swords also grow very quickly. so they're easily affected by nutrient diffiencies. try dosing more ferts using the EI (estimative index) method.

and stop using the airstone at night, it doesnt benefit fish nor plant. purging the co2 out at night is bad too, because if you do the plants will be starved for CO2 in the morning when the lights turn on.
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D
iridescencet said:
if you don't want the trouble of DIY-ing, you can get the "cyclo" diffusers from dennerle, these are the some of the best diffusers money can buy.

link: http://www.dennerle.de/EN/HG26UG06.htm

they're can be considerably more expensive but are VERY effective. you get no wastage of CO2 and dennerle products have always been very well built.

it might not fit on your jewel's internal filter though. and either way the jewel's internal filter is definetely not enough to generate the water movement around the plants throughout the tank (owned a jewel b4). Getting a new external canister would help alot, especially if your going to stock a number of fishes.
Click to expand...
Hi,

thanks for the reply.
Those are expensive but I may treat myself if they work okay.
I could fix it near the filter outflow which in the 450 is quite fast.
I don't rearly wan't to go down the external route as I want simplicity and have no where to hide the filter. The tank buts the wall and so I cannot run the pipes behind (I know I should have thought of that!).
Do you know what tubing I should use for Co2. Is the JBL black tubing special or will neoprene airtube do? I would need to extend my outlet somewhat.

Thanks again,

Dog.:fish1:
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Gatekeeper
iridescencet said:
160 W for 450L is too low. the recommended amount of light is 1 watt per litre.
Click to expand...
Says who? There is no "standard" for lighting...only suggestions based on what your "intent" will be for the scape you have. I have seen plenty of low light setups that flourish just as well as a high light. Its just slower growth.

iridescencet said:
and stop using the airstone at night, it doesnt benefit fish nor plant. purging the co2 out at night is bad too, because if you do the plants will be starved for CO2 in the morning when the lights turn on.
Click to expand...
why? there is nothing wrong with using an airstone as an O2 supplement during the night...just have the CO2 turn back on well before the lights come on in the morning. OR....don't turn the CO2 off at all and just outgas it with an airstone to assure that the fish are not O2 deprived. There are countless people on this forum that use this method and there is absolutly nothing wrong with it.
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D
iridescencet said:
oh and about your amazon swords. 160 W for 450L is too low. the recommended amount of light is 1 watt per litre. (can you give us the dimensions of your tank too?)

amazon swords also grow very quickly. so they're easily affected by nutrient diffiencies. try dosing more ferts using the EI (estimative index) method.

and stop using the airstone at night, it doesnt benefit fish nor plant. purging the co2 out at night is bad too, because if you do the plants will be starved for CO2 in the morning when the lights turn on.
Click to expand...
Hi,

I've already added some ferts for the swords yesterday.
I'll stop the air and see what happens and check my light caculations.
I'm worried about the plants increasing the Co2 too high and making the fish pant at night. BTW is increased respiration at night normal for a planted tank. I don't believe it's oxygen because the fish are okay in the morning. They just seem to pant a bit during the night.

Dog.
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I
haha okay. well you could always use a powerhead to drive the dennerle cyclo if it really doest fit well on the jewel's standard.

in my experience panting isnt a problem. fishes would swim to the surface and "gasp" for air if there isnt enough oxygen.

gmccreedy has a good point about the oxygen stone too. if things still dont improve and you want to run the oxygen stone at night. could always turn the CO2 about half or a full hour before the lights come on.

keep trying and you'll eventually find whats best for your tank! =D
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Gatekeeper
DogTailRed2 said:
Hi,

I've already added some ferts for the swords yesterday.
I'll stop the air and see what happens and check my light caculations.
I'm worried about the plants increasing the Co2 too high and making the fish pant at night. BTW is increased respiration at night normal for a planted tank. I don't believe it's oxygen because the fish are okay in the morning. They just seem to pant a bit during the night.

Dog.
Click to expand...
this is craziness. Leave the airstone....the fish are panting because they are O2 deprived. You are CRANKING CO2...10 bps is quite a bit, even if its not getting 100% dillution.

The swords sound like they are settling in. This is very common. Leave them be and wait it out. If you don't see new growth in a week or two, then you have a problem. But changing things around quickly is not going to "make a quick fix" unless you know for sure that you were not doing something (like fertilizing). Are the swords "shaded" by another plant? Do they have direct light?

From what I can see, you are just under 2wpg which in all honesty is a good range for the plants you have. You have pretty undemanding plants....just keep up with ferts and water changes and monitor progress.
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mrkookm
DogTailRed2 said:
Hi,

I have a jewel 450 Aquarium which is an upgrade on two four foot aquariums I used to have. The tank came with the new T5 lighting (or maybe they are called t8's, long thin ones) x 2 tubes to which I have added two compact T5 tubes. This gives about 160 watts all told. I have a JBL Co2 system which adds Co2 by day and shuts off at night. To help the fish I purge any Co2 from the tank at night by running a single airstone for 6 hours. Unlit hours are 10 in total. During the day the lights come on for 8 hours on a weekday and 11 hours weekend days.
I currently have Anubia's, Vallis, Wysteria, Crypts, Elodea and Polysperma and all are thriving. Co2 is not registering much off the 'blue' mark, it still shows blue. I add tabs to the substrate (which is a very fine 2mm gravel) and once a fortnight some liquid fert. When I set up the tank 6 weeks ago I also added some dwarf amazon swords. They did well at first and produced lots of root and lots of green leaves with runners. Six weeks down the line and while all other plants are happy the swords are shedding leaves and look to be dying.
How do I dentify the cause and how can I increase the diffusion of Co2 into the aquarium. I'm at about 10 bubbles a second but don't feel the diffuser is doing very good. It's one of those circular balck ones about 6 inches high.
I've heard the ladder type is best or the new glass ones.
Also how can I determine what's wrong with a sick plant. Is there a guide as you would get to diagnose a sick fish?

Thanks,

Dog.
Click to expand...

You said your DC is still registering blue, did you make your solution for the DC using your tank water?

What kind of filtration do you use for your tank, canister or sump?

Your diffuser sounds to be the E-Aquaplant Spiro Diffuser. What is the diameter of the ceramic disk? For your size tank one Rhinox 5000 'R5K' wouldn't be adequate in my opinion and from the looks of it the R5K has a larger diameter disk than your current one, so I would get a R5K and add it in the tank on the farthest opposing side from current diffuser. Preferably you would want to add this near some flow so that the mist gets circulated around or add a low liter per minute powerhead to increase efficacy. (eg) I had an 302lph powerhead over my R5K in my 340l tank for added circulation of mist.

We need to know your current fert dosing & routine to help with figuring out what is happening to your plant's. So far we can only guess as to what might possibly be causing the issue.

Are you sure they are panting? If they are fine during the day when you have 10bpm being pumped in the water it's kinda hard to believe they are at night, it usually works hand in hand. I have my DC at yellow at all times in my 75l, green in my 340l and I run my co2 24hrs and I don't have any fish having any panting issues nor do I add o2 at night. Possibly my fish have a higher tolerance to co2...but i doubt it? :)

See some common tropical fish disease here
.
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D
Update

Hi,

thanks for everyones help.
I'll answer a few questions first and continue with the discussion;

mrkookm said:
You said your DC is still registering blue, did you make your solution for the DC using your tank water? Yes, and I've changed it just in case the soloution was expired. Still shows blue. Not deep blue but still pretty blue.

What kind of filtration do you use for your tank, canister or sump? Internal filter as supplied with the jewel. It has quite a flow and keeps the tank clear. The outflow is below waterlevel and causes no stir at the surface.

Your diffuser sounds to be the E-Aquaplant Spiro Diffuser. What is the diameter of the ceramic disk? I would say about 3cm diameter.

For your size tank one Rhinox 5000 'R5K' wouldn't be adequate in my opinion and from the looks of it the R5K has a larger diameter disk than your current one, so I would get a R5K and add it in the tank on the farthest opposing side from current diffuser. Preferably you would want to add this near some flow so that the mist gets circulated around or add a low liter per minute powerhead to increase efficacy. (eg) I had an 302lph powerhead over my R5K in my 340l tank for added circulation of mist.

I'll try and add the 600 litre ladder type diffuser if I can find one.

We need to know your current fert dosing & routine to help with figuring out what is happening to your plant's. So far we can only guess as to what might possibly be causing the issue.

I've added adbout 50 tabs spread across the aquarium. Tanks only been running about 6 weeks. I dose with liquid ferts once a fortnight. I don't have algy, maybe a tiny amount on front glass but nothing noticeable.

Are you sure they are panting? If they are fine during the day when you have 10bpm being pumped in the water it's kinda hard to believe they are at night, it usually works hand in hand. I have my DC at yellow at all times in my 75l, green in my 340l and I run my co2 24hrs and I don't have any fish having any panting issues nor do I add o2 at night. Possibly my fish have a higher tolerance to co2...but i doubt it? :) e

I've left the airstone running at night. I don't think they are panting just seems to be normal for my loaches, but they are healthy.

See some common tropical fish disease here
.
Click to expand...
Now, back to the plot.
My fish are quite healthy. Polysperma, Crypts, Wysteria, Vallis and Elodea all growing fast. It's just the Dwarf Amazons which look a bit ropy although they get extra light than the other plants from my two compact t5's. The plant leaves are becomming frail and shedding, although they are sticking out runners like mad and growing new leaves. Perhaps they just need time to settle? I have clowns in the tank. Maybe they disturb the swords too much?
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Gatekeeper
I thought your were supposed to use a set solution for your DC, not tank water.
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tazcrash69
gmccreedy said:
I thought your were supposed to use a set solution for your DC, not tank water.
Click to expand...
Agreed you should use a standardized KH solution to eliminate the possibility of any other buffers (phosphates for one) throwing off your Drop Checker readings.

DogTailRed2 said:
It's just the Dwarf Amazons which look a bit ropy although they get extra light than the other plants from my two compact t5's. The plant leaves are becomming frail and shedding, although they are sticking out runners like mad and growing new leaves. Perhaps they just need time to settle? I have clowns in the tank. Maybe they disturb the swords too much?
Click to expand...
The swords in question sound like Echinodorus tenellus, if that is the case I've had them loose original leaves when transplanting. If they are growing new leaves, and sending runners, I wouldn't worry about them.
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