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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So I've had a pair of GBRs for a few months that paired after a couple of weeks. After a couple of weeks, the mating displays of flashing and finning died down, despite bi-weekly egg-laying. I noticed then that the male began to occasionally display irregular flashing/jolting (almost like a seizure) and itching against substrate. He appeared sluggish and not as interested in mating displays (not sure if this is typical after pairing or not). I read a little and self-diagnosed it as gill flukes. The female also occasionally showed the itching behavior.

I finally got these guys out of my main tank to try to treat with Cupramine (and isolate them to maybe get a successful fry hatching). The API Copper test kit is very off color, and I was worried about being able to keep the concentration at the proper level for a long enough time because of it. Didn't feel like spending more money to get a diff, more expensive mail-ordered kit. So I scrapped that idea.

I went to the LFS. The guy tells me that copper treatment won't cure gill flukes. Gives me PRAZIPRO. I overdose my QT tank by mistake like an idiot. The male is totally fine, female is hyperventilating/seems to not be breathing at all. Fins looking in bad condition all of the sudden (might be totally anecdotal, but I've never noticed it in all 4 months). Moving mouth like she's choking, turns very dark, barely moves from bottom or reacts to stimuli.

40% water change, put carbon back in. She's fine the next day (today). I try to dose the proper amount today(~2 ml for a 10 gallon). Same symptoms... Female looks like she's about to go belly up and is having a hard time breathing. Plenty of circulation. ~40% water change again, carbon back in. Crossed fingers.

Should I let nature run its course and hope they get better before I kill them with meds? Has anyone had a bad experience with Prazipro (not just overdosing. lol.)? Or treated gill flukes with copper? Has anyone seen the original symptoms before of uncontrollable jolting and know what it is?

Thanks
-first time poster
 

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How much of an overdose are you talking?

I've used PraziPro on rams and they tolerated just fine.

I've never overdosed Prazi so I don't know really what effects it would have, but I guess it may have possibly damaged something in the fish, which might explain it's negative reaction to even the now recommended dosage concentration. Asking Hikari themselves might get more informative input on overdosing.

Rams can turn black (usually just black striping) if overly stressed, which the med could have done. I have seen pics of rams turning really black, although the exact cause wasn't identified, maybe severe stress?
Either way, the female isn't tolerating PraziPro well at all, so I wouldn't dose it.

Did you remove Cupramine before adding PraziPro? I am not sure about Cupramine, but some Copper meds are not removed by activated carbon/charcoal. Some meds can negatively interact when combined (not sure if Cupramine and Prazi and one of those).

Do the fish have red gills and/or are the gill plate covers inflamed/enlarged/protruding? That, along with heavy breathing (usually gasping at the surface) is more concrete signs of gill flukes.
With just the symptoms you mentioned, in my opinion I wouldn't suspect gill flukes. There can be many reasons for flashing and in-activeness so it is hard to say exactly what it might be. First step is always to check water parameters to make sure that aspect is ruled out. Besides the Nitrogen levels, check your pH, kH and gH if you can (can have effect on fish health and med interaction).

By the way, PraziPro can take over a month to successfully cure gill flukes. If you were still determined to treat that, I would prefer using Metronidazole (found in Seachem MetroPlex or AquaZole). But given that the female ram didn't tolerate the other med well, I would give it some time for it's system to heal/recover before using another med. You could probably dose Melafix to help the fish heal faster in the mean time. I would still be cautious treating, dose the recommended amount (I wouldn't dose half strength as it is an antibiotic) and just observe how the rams tolerate it, being ready to remove the med if things don't go well.

Also remember to increase aeration when using meds.
PraziPro is regarded as a very safe med to use. It does seem so, but I've seen some fish with severe internal parasite issues that were managing to live for a long time while infected, then all the sudden a recommended dose of PraziPro killed the severely infected fish the same day). Might of been coincidental and maybe the fish just so happend to succumb to the parasites/malnourishment the same day the med was dosed, but I doubt it. It was probably the fish was surviving barely and the med added just enough stress on the fish that it died. But it is still noted as a gentle med for the majority of uses.

You mentioned "irregular flashing/jolting" together. They could be categorized as two different symptoms, flashing just being the fish scratching itself against objects, and jolting could be just darting around for no apparent reason without scratching itself. Did you mean both of these symptoms I just differentiated or just flashing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I dosed double the directed amount (20 gallon dose for a 10 gallon b/c I'm so used to dosing the 20). It was fine for almost a day, but then I came back that evening and realized she wasn't doing that well. Then I realized my mistake.

No I did not dose both Cupra and Prazi at the same time, though I have read that they will not interact and can be dosed simultaneously. A nice med cocktail that would be.

pH = 7.7, GH = 6, and KH = 5 were all a little too high in the main tank due to a bad batch of Eco-Complete. The QT tank that they are now only has pool sand, rocks, and a few plants. No KH or GH properties from substrate. Water comes out of tap at ~7.6 pH, 4 GH, 3 KH. Those seem more favorable to me than what Eco-Complete is generating in the 20. Nitrogen is always fine w/ all the plants and biofiltration.

The gills are not inflamed, protruding, and have no visible parasites. I read that cichlids are particularly susceptible to gill flukes, and their symptoms were the same as those that I saw.

Recently I have seen less itching. Flashing was not the right term. Jolting, sporadic, seemingly involuntary movement is the most disturbing and worrisome b/c its exaggerated enough that the other fish think there is a threat nearby. That concerns me the most.
 

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I have also used Prazi Pro plenty of times as a precaution for wild caught fish. Never had a problem. The flashing could also be early signs of ich. I would get a good look at the fish to make sure that is not the reason for the flashing. Ich sometimes starts out that way before you see the actual spots. I would stop treatments for right now and just observe both fish closely.
If you did a 40% water change and then added the correct amount to the water it is again overdosing as Prazi Pro does not disappear from the water in a day and 60% of your water still had the overdosed Prazi Pro in it when you doses again. The 60% remaining water would have had enough left to be the recommended dosis.
 

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I keep prazi on hand. I love it in conjunction with paraguard.

Are you sure if its parasites or flukes they themselves arent going nuts from the meds and affecting the fish oddly?
was all the copper out of the tank pre dosing with prazi? Maybe the two meds arent reacting well to each other.
 

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If you did a 40% water change and then added the correct amount to the water it is again overdosing as Prazi Pro does not disappear from the water in a day and 60% of your water still had the overdosed Prazi Pro in it when you doses again. The 60% remaining water would have had enough left to be the recommended dosis.
I added the corrected dose again the next day b/c I figured the carbon I added would have removed it. Does it take a long time to be chemically filtered and removed?

Bump:
You mentioned "irregular flashing/jolting" together. They could be categorized as two different symptoms, flashing just being the fish scratching itself against objects, and jolting could be just darting around for no apparent reason without scratching itself. Did you mean both of these symptoms I just differentiated or just flashing?
Recently I have seen less itching. Flashing was not the right term. Jolting, sporadic, seemingly involuntary movement is the most disturbing and worrisome b/c its exaggerated enough that the other fish think there is a threat nearby. That concerns me the most.

Did you remove Cupramine before adding PraziPro? I am not sure about Cupramine, but some Copper meds are not removed by activated carbon/charcoal. Some meds can negatively interact when combined (not sure if Cupramine and Prazi and one of those.
Never dosed Cupramine, but I have the bottle. I had read that you can dose simultaneously, though. Has anyone had problems maintaining the proper level for 2 weeks (I think that's the recommended duration) without a test kit? Does it kill external parasites like flukes? It says it does, but LFS know-it-all said otherwise.
 

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I had something similar happen with my angelfish, I added the recomended dose and within 10 mins 2 of them looked awful, slime was all coming off and looked like they were suffocating, large emergency waterchange and all was well, it only affected 2 out of 7 angels and no affect on the other fish in the tank, I waited a week and decided to try it again, dosed half dose and same thing, so im going to stick with paragurad, have had good luck with it. good luck:)
 

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I had something similar happen with my angelfish, I added the recomended dose and within 10 mins 2 of them looked awful, slime was all coming off and looked like they were suffocating, large emergency waterchange and all was well, it only affected 2 out of 7 angels and no affect on the other fish in the tank, I waited a week and decided to try it again, dosed half dose and same thing, so im going to stick with paragurad, have had good luck with it. good luck:)
First time I used prazi I had my first yoyo in the tank and the same thing happened. He got awful looking, breathing heavy and his entire slime coat looked like flaking skin. Loved that loach and we felt awful he passed. I swear he would know you were there and look you in the eyes for help. Water changes didnt help.
Maybe certain bacteria or parasites on a particular fish's skin just react badly with prazi or there is so much on the fish (you cant see) that as they die off they start killing its slime coat.

I used the prazi because it was supposed to be safe for loaches to.
 

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I have heard about same thing happening, I read a guy had a tankful of large beautiful discus, he used it as a preventative before he shipped them out, came back a while later and every one was dead, that would have been heartbreaking!! not sure whats up with the tuff, but ya like i said im scared to use it again.
 
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