[Zapins]

Zorfox - how are we sure that CO2 causes or contributes to BBA?

From what I've been able to gather from the data in the APC thread it seems more common in tanks where CO2 is injected. If our hypothesis says CO2 will stop BBA from growing then that is 100% proven false simply by its presence in more than 50% of the high tech CO2 results we collected.

Perhaps CO2 lessens the extent of BBA? But then why would it seems to grow on filter outlets, and on CO2 diffusers? The old advice that low CO2 = BBA simply isn't right based on the data we have.

At one point many years ago I had a really bad BBA outbreak, so I removed all my fish and added so much CO2 my water fizzed like soda for weeks. The BBA grew on every surface like I've never seen it grow before, so if anything I'd say it seems to promote growth.

 

[mistergreen]

Zorfox - how are we sure that CO2 causes or contributes to BBA?

From what I've been able to gather from the data in the APC thread it seems more common in tanks where CO2 is injected. If our hypothesis says CO2 will stop BBA from growing then that is 100% proven false simply by its presence in more than 50% of the high tech CO2 results we collected.

Perhaps CO2 lessens the extent of BBA? But then why would it seems to grow on filter outlets, and on CO2 diffusers? The old advice that low CO2 = BBA simply isn't right based on the data we have.

At one point many years ago I had a really bad BBA outbreak, so I removed all my fish and added so much CO2 my water fizzed like soda for weeks. The BBA grew on every surface like I've never seen it grow before, so if anything I'd say it seems to promote growth.

I've a sneaky suspicion that drastic co2 shifts triggers BBa, whether this the co2 itself or the ph swings. When I kept my co2 constant, BBa seemed to disappear. This was with the help of a co2 sensor. I don't trust a ph sensor to control co2 because of the constant calibration and other variables.

All my low tech dirt tanks are free of BBa btw and I rarely change the water. Doc must be a lot.


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[Zorfox]

Zorfox - how are we sure that CO2 causes or contributes to BBA?

Direct observation. I personally tinkered with this notion. However, my experience differs. The only way I could predictably increase growth was with unstable levels. DIY CO2 with one bottle seems to be a perfect BBA factory.

From what I've been able to gather from the data in the APC thread it seems more common in tanks where CO2 is injected. If our hypothesis says CO2 will stop BBA from growing then that is 100% proven false simply by its presence in more than 50% of the high tech CO2 results we collected.

To the contrary. I think poor CO2 delivery is a primary cause. Before I go any further, remember we're talking hypothesis here lol.

If indeed BBA prefers specific nutrients then poor CO2 delivery would increase those levels in a planted tank based on the inability for plants to uptake nutrients. Rubisco production follows the levels of CO2. This is a rather expensive enzyme for plants to create. It also takes time. So if we provide fluctuating CO2 what happens to plants? It would seem the Rubisco production goes hay wire. They either spend energy producing it or fail to have significant amounts to utilize nutrients when CO2 is low. In both situations the plants have a decreased ability to uptake nutrients.

This leaves an opportunistic algae to scavenge. Algae respond to changes much quicker than plants so these changes won't have as much effect. Does BBA respond to CO2 levels directly? I have no idea. I do however think there is a relationship between the two sides of this debate. We know that the CO2 side of the debate alters BBA production. The why is still rather grey.

 

[Hardstuff]

Zapins that was an interesting experiment. That was interesting but from my experience more CO2 usually grew more BBA like others say as well.

I agree with Mistergreen that its the fluctuation that causes spore release & new growth. Thats why I said & will say it again that CO2 is involved , but IMO its the trigger, not the complete fuel source . BBA may have many nutrients that it really uses but I speculate like others that there is a group of compounds specific to fuel the growth organic in nature. What they are we may find out if enough samples are run through the analyzer.

I believe that's why people see new BBA growths after water changes in low tech set ups. I stole that line from Tom but it makes sense. However that ph swing & CO2 surge promotes BBA because other conditions are right for growth. The surge is usually so great tn low tech tanks after non degassed water is used that only the most well maintained systems could defend BBA from growing. I had a basic experimental 10 gallon low tech with cheap lighting low to moderate bio mass growing & when I started doing big water changes not degassed plus adding stronger lighting at the same time BBA grew immediately. Since it grew I added DIY CO2 which helped lower the levels of BBA & I planted more stems as the tank evolved. I dosed EI than added pressurized with an internal reactor & the BBA decreased more but persisted on tank walls & mostly filter parts & the slowest growing or dying leaves.

Now I am at the point a year later & until recently the tank always had a small to moderate problem with BBA but mostly resolved with a slight weekly trim of a few leaves or a stem or two & it looked pretty good. But in the last few weeks I decided to get more aggressive & target organics so I added more filtration & surface agitation & like I said more filter cleaning & water changes not degassed unless I make it after lights out when the tank becomes more alkaline to keep ph & CO2 more stable have I seen much more improvement.

The tank that gets aeration at night which had a worse problem that has fish in it now is doing much better with the BBA. Now in this case the tank moves a full unit from ( 6.6, 6.7-- 7.4-7.6) range in about 4 hours or less. Yet BBA is now struggling to stay alive! The water also looks clearer even though I have not increased water changes. Why , I always felt that tanks water since having BBA growing was not perfectly clear, almost like I could see the organics. Now its crystal clear after aeration at night . Maybe an increase in filter bacteria & the bacteria can do their job better with more alkaline oxygenated water???

Mistergreen said his dirt tanks have high DOC's & no BBA? Well the stable ph & CO2 maybe saving you & or the DOC's that are in your substrate may not be the correct fuel source or correct group of compounds that it prefers . Speculation of course . Also even more important maybe that tank is actually better oxygenated & or alkaline which is better for the filter bacteria. And do you use aged water??? That would be huge because that would degas the water which would keep CO2 more stable.

You would think that lower levels of CO2 would be needed for lower light systems & those tanks still get BBA so that in part would indicate unstable CO2 & or poor flow, & of course high organic nutrient loads from dirty filters & dirty substrate. That could be my issue since I do not run high lights . Besides from high organics I really believe in CO2 tanks that gas stability is critical because unless you have a well maintained sump or very clean canisters if the CO2 becomes unstable during the photo period or beyond could be a BBA producer!

Sorry for the ramble but feel this is important as well. I did as mentioned from was it Zapins? keeping the CO2 stable constantly , I tried that but with out a controller , running a reactor on a timer I kept the CO2 as stable as possible even at night & the BBA grew as usual? I believe stability acid wise is counterproductive especially at night ! Why,bad for the filter bacteria. Thats why I decided to aerate at night an noticed BBA backing down!

Thanks Zorfox for the article , I shall have fun digesting it. Looks really good.

 

[Zapins]

The problem I have with algae advice that says "this definitely causes that species of algae to grow/die" is that there are a hundred examples that support and a hundred examples that refute the statement. I strongly feel we should not say that we know 100% what causes a species of algae to grow or not grow without conducting proper trials and running the correct statistics on it. Without going through the proper steps we can't claim 100% knowledge of what causes a given algae. There will always be hundreds of counter examples and people who believe they know what causes it until we have solid well conducted experiments and numerical data to back it up. The best we can do until then is make educated guesses based on our personal experience which may or may not work for anyone else.

Whatever causes each species of algae to bloom can't be related simply to one factor, otherwise we'd have figured it out by now and never have algae issues.

My problem with blaming CO2 stability, fluctuations etc.. for BBA is that we cannot accurately, cheaply, or reliably measure CO2, or even measure how much BBA we have in a tank. This makes figuring out if CO2 is related or not very difficult at the hobbyist level.

 

[Hardstuff]

I agree mostly especially about being 100% at this point. I am still going though this new experiment that I am performing. Time may tell for me. As far as determining its actual food source, well that may never happen. But who knows? Samples, & more samples tested in a lab.

However yes, most of us cannot measure CO2 levels down to a specific ppm . That being said, we can assume to a large degree especially in a non dirt low tech set up with little to no water changes recently that carbon gas is limited , correct? We can also assume that fresh R/O water or tap water will contain more CO2 gas than said tank. That being said say at 50% new R/O water that has not been degassed will change ph / CO2 levels quickly. I have measured it many times. I know regency , but I also measure new water with digital ph meter.

Leave R/O water out over night & see how it rises in the morning after the CO2 degasses!

 

[mistergreen]

I built a CO2 sensor for my arduino for $250. Pricey but affordable. The trick is to making it waterproof which I failed in the long run.

 

[Hardstuff]

I just checked the tanks . I am very happy BBA has not come back in any noticeable way on the plants in all my tanks. However BBA still is growing slightly on the back glass on one tank but not on any filter , heater , or powerhead/reactor . I very seldom clean the back glass in that tank, so I am guess flow/ nutrients are playing a part on why it insists growing back there. It is growing down & behind the spray bar . I really do not see that as a problem but I am going to nuke it off with some peroxide later today when I clean the canister. This will be the second time this month I have clean the canister.

I really believe the night time aeration is helping a lot improving redox, & yes I am cranking the CO2 in both tanks. I have been waiting 8 months now I am glad I waited more & tried different things to help the tank because the tank has now turned the corner , I can feel the energy that I have not felt in nearly a year. I am getting 2 or 3 new leaves every other day from the Anubias. Needle leaf ludwigia has puffy green & gold , bronze looking leaves again. The tank is also consuming more nitrates now a good sign.

I am also paying close attention to better surface agitation to help the water not get so acidic & provide more gas exchange.

I will keep this info posted from time to time to see if it holds the test of time.

 

[tetra73]

Sorry if someone has said this but healthy plants do not attract BBA. BBA tends to grow on hardscapes due to too much light. Excessive organic content will cause BBA too.

One way to control BBA outbreak is to have enough CO2 (that's a whole another big issue) and balanced fert dosage. The rest is just weekly maintenance and cleaning and water changes. You can also add 2x excel dosage for preventive measures. My low tech, non-co2, medium light tank dose not have algae, period. I dose 2x daily excel though. With my high tech tank, I get BBA on my hardscapes and some small sections on the aquarium glass. I have a medium high to high lighting and somewhat overstock with fish and very heavy on the plant organic load. So, I don't bother to eradicate the BBA. I focus on the plants and making sure they are growing. If not, I would trim them off.

 

[tetra73]

The problem I have with algae advice that says "this definitely causes that species of algae to grow/die" is that there are a hundred examples that support and a hundred examples that refute the statement. I strongly feel we should not say that we know 100% what causes a species of algae to grow or not grow without conducting proper trials and running the correct statistics on it. Without going through the proper steps we can't claim 100% knowledge of what causes a given algae. There will always be hundreds of counter examples and people who believe they know what causes it until we have solid well conducted experiments and numerical data to back it up. The best we can do until then is make educated guesses based on our personal experience which may or may not work for anyone else.

Whatever causes each species of algae to bloom can't be related simply to one factor, otherwise we'd have figured it out by now and never have algae issues.

My problem with blaming CO2 stability, fluctuations etc.. for BBA is that we cannot accurately, cheaply, or reliably measure CO2, or even measure how much BBA we have in a tank. This makes figuring out if CO2 is related or not very difficult at the hobbyist level.

And whatever can kill algae, it can also kill plants. Frankly, there aren't many ways to kill algae effectively though. You can spot treat the plants with excel but there is 50% change the excel would also melt the leaves. You can differently spot treat on hardscapes. Besides that, the safest way is to dose moderate amount of excel (2x daily dosage) for about 2 to 3 weeks. The BBA should be weakened by then and can be easily come off or eaten by fish. Of course, you should physically remove any BBA as much as possible and to trim off affected leaves. And of course, if your plants aren't growing properly because of fert or CO2 issues, the BBA will come back for sure.

 

[Zapins]

I built a CO2 sensor for my arduino for $250. Pricey but affordable. The trick is to making it waterproof which I failed in the long run.

Now this is interesting.

Do you have a thread on how you built yours?

Any idea how accurate the probe is?

They sell CO2 detectors for rooms, but they are only accurate to within 5-10% which isn't very good IMO.

 

[mistergreen]

Now this is interesting.

Do you have a thread on how you built yours?

Any idea how accurate the probe is?

They sell CO2 detectors for rooms, but they are only accurate to within 5-10% which isn't very good IMO.

yup, it's here
http://aquatictechtank.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11
It is 10% accurate for CO2 in the air or ppmv - v for volume.
But most people don't know that in water, we use ppmw - w for weight or the weight of the CO2 molecule. So basically, the 10% accuracy is negligible for ppmw.

 

[Zorfox]

Mistergreen,

Did you see the link I posted there? That article describes how they built theirs with quite a lot of detail. If I remember correctly they used a PTFE tube sealed with plasti dip.

 

[mistergreen]

Mistergreen,

Did you see the link I posted there? That article describes how they built theirs with quite a lot of detail. If I remember correctly they used a PTFE tube sealed with plasti dip.

Oh yeah, thanks for the post! When I have time, I'll give it a read.