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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've never really kept a planted tank, but have been doing some reading to try to familiarize myself with keeping some plants. But I want to do it in a rather unorthadox way, compared to most planted tanks. I breed discus, and am remodeling my 440 square foot fish room, and rearranging all my tanks. I am setting up my bare-bottom breeder tanks (fourteen 29 gallon tanks) on a two shelf pallet rack (which will give me a top row of seven tanks, and a bottom row of seven tanks). Each is drilled for a 1 inch bulkhead, and has an overflow attached to it. I've heard so much positive about using a central, wet/dry system on a breeder rack for discus, I was going to hook each breeder tank into a central system for just the breeder rack. But with a wet/dry, you're still left with nitrates, which you would have to keep low with water changes, I know. But I want to have the ultimate water quality for my breeders and my newborn fry to give them the very best chance of success. I was talking to a friend of mine that used to be into discus (now into saltwater), and he told me that I needed to look into refugiums. He told me they are the rage in saltwater tanks, and that a freshwater refugium would allow me to have an even more "natural" filter to give the breeders and the fry even better water quality.
So after doing a bunch of research on the saltwater forums, and here on plantedtank.net, and Googling on the www, I was wondering if I could run my idea by you and see what pitfalls or problems I might have in this design.
With fourteen 29 gallon tanks, I have about 400 gallons of water in the breeder tanks alone. Then, I'm going to build a sump beneath the bottom shelf of breeder tanks, which will be 96 inches Long x 36 inches Wide x 12 inches High, which will be about 180 gallons. The total system will be right around 600 gallons of water. I was thinking about making part of the sump a refugium, where I thought about having some fast growing stem plants, and/or some floating plants (like water hyacinth or water lettuce). Since this is a discus breeder setup and I'll be keeping the microsiemens at 60-100 with R/O, the Ph will be acidic (probably around 6.0 to 6.5, so the fish will give off ammonium instead of ammonia. So I've read that these plants will suck up the ammonium and the nitrate, which should give excellent water quality.
In the research I've done, I've found some information on refugiums in freshwater (called plant filters, veggie filters, and plant scrubbers), much less with discus, and absolutely no info on refugiums being used on a large breeder discus rack like what I'm planning. I'm trying to figure out some of this stuff in my head before plunging into this and making some expensive mistakes, so here are some questions for you plant gurus:

1. How large should the refugium be? In the saltwater info I've been reading up on, they say 10-20 percent of the display tanks space (which would be 40-80 gallons for my 400 gallons of breeder tanks), but I didn't know if that was right for freshwater. How large should I make the refugium (for the amount of gallons of water in the entire setup), considering I'm making this huge sump homemade, and can make the refugium any size? Should I forget about a separate refugium, and just let the plants cover the entire sump (with about 1500 gallons per hour running past the plants, and through the sump)? The saltwater guys say it has to be separate for the following reason in question #2.

2. The saltwater guys say that the flow through the refugium should be about one turn per hour. In other words, if you have a 40 gallon refugium, the water flowing into it should be choked down to about 40 gallons per hour, with the remaining water going into the sump. I guess this is so the refugium can absorb the nutrients. The remaining amount of water from the breeder tanks would go to the sump directly. Any thoughts on if this is too high, or too low of flow? If I did run the full amount of water past the plants, would they uptake the same amount of nutrients, or is slow flow the way to go?

3. I was thinking about using fast growing stem plants (maybe like Milfoil, Hornwort, water sprite, or anachris) in the refugium. Are there any recommendations for which of these stem plants (or any others I didn't mention) that would do good in the acidic, 82 degree discus waters? Remember, I don't care about looks because no one will ever see the plants, they're just there to suck up nutrients and improve the water quality.

4. Do I need to plant these in some sort of substrate, or can they just float around in the water column of the refugium? If I need a substrate for stem plants, what would you recommend? One concern I have if they're just laying in the water, they will matte at the top, and the ones below won't get the same amount of light, so maybe anchoring them in a substrate would allow the light to penetrate more stem plants. Is this right or wrong thinking?

5. I was also thinking about using nothing but floating plants, like water hyacinth or water lettuce, which I understand the roots in the water will act as a mechanical filter, and will really uptake nutrients. If the entire surface of the refugium is covered, I wouldn't really be able to have stem plants below, since there would be little light penetration into the water column due to the canopy of floating plants. Right? Or can I have both?

6. Would I be better off with floating plants or stem plants, or a combination of both, or something else all together? Advantages and disadvantages to both? Whatever way I go, I want to go as low tech as possible. I will light the plants with a full spectrum bulb (such as a vita-lite maybe?), and provide them with a place (the refugium) with low water flow so they can uptake the nutrients (ammonium and nitrate) produced by the breeder pairs and fry, but that's about it. They're pretty much on their own. I don't want to dose anything. I would harvest some plants as they fill up the refugium, so they continue to uptake nutrients, but I want it to be just as maintenance free as possible.

7. Should I filter the water coming from the breeder tanks mechanically before it goes into the refugium? Or is it best for the poop and mulm to flow into the refugium? I will be doing daily 25% water changes using a bulkhead and ball valve at the bottom of the refugium and sump, so most of the poop and mulm would be drained out each day so it doesn't get too deep, though not all of it. Or I might mechanically remove it with filter floss before it gets to the sump and refugium, if that's the better way to go, though this would be more work.

8. Regarding lighting, should I have this going 24 hours a day, or just for half the day? The saltwater guys want you to have the light over your refugium going half the day during the night hours, when the main display tanks light is off. They say that without a refugium, the PH drops during the night since the corals and live rock are producing CO2 at night. With a refugium run in a reverse lighting cycle to the main tank, the Ph stays consistent, since the refugium consumes the CO2 produced in the main tank during the night.
But with my situation, I'll have no plants in the breeder tanks, so I'm concerned there will be a PH drop during the night, and unstable conditions for the fry. The wet/dry will be running 24 hours a day, but if I only have the plant filter running half the day, will that cause problems for the discus?
Or are there problems for the plants doing this? One concern I have is algae may take over, but in a refugium, supposedly algae is a good thing because it is supposedly very good at eating up the nutrients too. Or should I run the lights only at night, or only during the day? If so, why?

9. I had originally thought of this as a central wet/dry setup. But now that I'm thinking about doing this natural veggie filter, is there a need for bio balls and a trickle tower? Or can I just use the plants as my 24 hour a day filter? The thing I want for this breeder setup is very good quality water, that is very consistent for the babies. Any thoughts?

10. Will my daily water changes of 25% cause problems for the plants, since the water will have so few nutrients in it? Or, maybe the water quality will be so good, I'll only have to change the water every other day, or longer. Any thoughts?

11. One of the advantages of the refugium that the saltwater guys really love is that they have all kinds of invertebrates living in the refugium that would normally get eaten in the display tank. These little critters, like shrimp and worms, are having baby's in the refugium, which flow into the display tank, and feed the corals. I thought this would be cool for my baby discus to have other kinds of live food available to them in the breeder tanks while on the backs of the parents. I would think about it as a 24 hour a day feeding setup. It would be better, I would think, than putting baby brine shrimp in several times per day, though I would if I need to.
So my question is, what kind of critters would I want to have in my refugium, to keep the plants healthy and to create a food source for my discus fry? I've read about Singapore, Cherry, Ghost, Glass and Amano Shrimp, and even Malaysian Trumpet Snails, freshwater clams and zebra mussels, and even daphnia. Some have even mentioned blackworms and tubifex, but I don't know about those since the latter are known as disease carriers. I would think these last few would be good if you had a substrate, and I'm not sure if I need a substrate for what I'm doing here. Any thoughts on what might be good in my refugium to feed my discus babies? Could I have some fauna in the refugium even if I only have floating plants with no substrate?

I know these questions are long, but I tried to number them to make it easy to separate. Please let me know any thoughts. All info is greatly appreciated.
Lance Krueger
 

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Perhaps something like moss or najas on the under and floaters would work.

With floating plants in mind the most surface area possible would be idea rather then depth.

I would avoid substrates as they will most likely mess with the water parameters...no need to get fancy. My 10g shrimp tank is like this.

As far as the critters go...CHERRY SHRIMP! they are small....prolific and yummy! My discus love them. Whenever I clean out my Eheim the discus get the shrimp inside.

If I were you this plant refugium would only be one stage of the filtration system as it is for reef tanks. A wet/dry in addition would be ideal.

Your questions are thoughtful...it is nice to see someone taking out the time and putting effort into keeping discus in the right conditions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Rex Grigg,
That's one of the things I thought of. Maybe that's why I might be better off just going with floating plants. If I did go with stem plants, would they just lay over on the surface and matte up? If so, would I get more nutrient uptake with them, or with floaters?
I read through your planted tank FAQ, and enjoyed it. Thanks for that. I saw your "New to Plants? Read my guide." I'll do that tomorrow, as it's late now. Always trying to learn....
Lance Krueger
 

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you could use water sprite as a floating plant, they're nutrient hogs that should do fine and grow fast. the light can only be on for 8-12 hours or else you'll kill the plants since at night they use respiration at night as part of their required daily schedule. I would definitely agree that the refugium should be separate from the sump because of the flow rate you stated you would need is too low for your total sump, I imagine. not sure how you'd implement that but shouldn't be hard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Brilliant,
I like the Brilliant discus in your avatar.
Since I'm such a newbie with plants, can you further detail what you mean in your first sentence:

"Perhaps something like moss or najas on the under and floaters would work."

I have no idea what najas is. And what "moss" would you recommend? And you would do both of those with floaters? If so, which floaters would you recommend? All of these would do well at discus temps?

Regarding having the most surface area, that's why I'm thinking floating plants again, since I only have 12 inches of depth, but a huge sump with a foot print of three feet by eight feet.

Cherry shrimp. Where do you get them? And how big are they? Small enough for adult discus? Not the baby discus, right? Maybe their spawn would get to the baby discus? Do you think? After escaping the refugium, they would have to make it through the impeller of the pump, which will return the cleaned water from the sump up to the overhead bio towers that would trickle into the breeder tanks.

Good thought regarding having the plant filter as only one part of the filtration system. If something ever went wrong with the plants, at least I'd still have the trickle filter to keep the biological activity going.

Thanks for your compliment at the end. My discus are my babies. I have about 120 adults in about 1200 gallons of community tanks that are spawning away, just waiting for a breeder tank with R/O water so their eggs can hatch. About half of the adults in my tanks are baby's that I raised up from the parents backs. When done, I'm planning to add about 1500 gallons of growout space to my 400 gallons of breeder tanks, and the 1200 gallons of mixed adults. Total will be about 3000 gallons. But only part of the way there. I'm setting all these up to do automatic 25-50% water changes, depending on what's in the tank. Heck, I may have plant filters on all the tanks, and may not have to do that many water changes, but I'll have to test and see, and this breeder rack is the first test. Will see what comes of it.
Thanks for your help!
Lance Krueger
 

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"Perhaps something like moss or najas on the under and floaters would work."

I have no idea what najas is. And what "moss" would you recommend? And you would do both of those with floaters? If so, which floaters would you recommend? All of these would do well at discus temps?
Probably Javan moss. They do tolerate high temps. As for floaters, Nymphaea stellata? They do provide shade for low-light plants.:smile: However, they'll need substrate to take root. Frogbits, salvinia or Pistia stratiotes?:icon_mrgr

Cherry shrimp. Where do you get them? And how big are they? Small enough for adult discus? Not the baby discus, right? Maybe their spawn would get to the baby discus? Do you think?
Cherry shrimps get around 3-4 cm I think. Why not ask from the members here?:hihi: A lot of them keep shrimps.:smile: Javan moss will provide refuge for them in case the discus see them as snacks.:smile:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rion,
Thanks for your thoughts. Water Sprite was one of the ones I've heard is an easy grower, and is a nutrient hog. Would you just put a bunch of it in the refugium free floating around? Or put it in some sort of substrate or gravel? So no 24 hour light, huh? Would turning the light off make the PH fluctuate in a low tech tank such as this? Oxygenation should still be high with the wet/dry running 24 hours, but I was concerned about CO2 building up in the night. And with soft water with little buffering capacity I was concerned about PH fluctuations stressing the breeders and the fry. Or worst case scenario would be a PH crash. But I don't know if I'm overly concerned about this. I just want consistency and optimum water quality.
I would just build walls into the DIY sump. Water would be fed to it by PVC pipe, and would overflow into the sump. I'm building the sump out of plywood, so can make any walls, overflows etc. I need. Just need to figure out what I need in it, before I build it.
Lance

you could use water sprite as a floating plant, they're nutrient hogs that should do fine and grow fast. the light can only be on for 8-12 hours or else you'll kill the plants since at night they use respiration at night as part of their required daily schedule. I would definitely agree that the refugium should be separate from the sump because of the flow rate you stated you would need is too low for your total sump, I imagine. not sure how you'd implement that but shouldn't be hard.
 

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Brilliant,
I like the Brilliant discus in your avatar.
Since I'm such a newbie with plants, can you further detail what you mean in your first sentence:

"Perhaps something like moss or najas on the under and floaters would work."

I have no idea what najas is. And what "moss" would you recommend? And you would do both of those with floaters? If so, which floaters would you recommend? All of these would do well at discus temps?

Regarding having the most surface area, that's why I'm thinking floating plants again, since I only have 12 inches of depth, but a huge sump with a foot print of three feet by eight feet.

Cherry shrimp. Where do you get them? And how big are they? Small enough for adult discus? Not the baby discus, right? Maybe their spawn would get to the baby discus? Do you think? After escaping the refugium, they would have to make it through the impeller of the pump, which will return the cleaned water from the sump up to the overhead bio towers that would trickle into the breeder tanks.

Good thought regarding having the plant filter as only one part of the filtration system. If something ever went wrong with the plants, at least I'd still have the trickle filter to keep the biological activity going.

Thanks for your compliment at the end. My discus are my babies. I have about 120 adults in about 1200 gallons of community tanks that are spawning away, just waiting for a breeder tank with R/O water so their eggs can hatch. About half of the adults in my tanks are baby's that I raised up from the parents backs. When done, I'm planning to add about 1500 gallons of growout space to my 400 gallons of breeder tanks, and the 1200 gallons of mixed adults. Total will be about 3000 gallons. But only part of the way there. I'm setting all these up to do automatic 25-50% water changes, depending on what's in the tank. Heck, I may have plant filters on all the tanks, and may not have to do that many water changes, but I'll have to test and see, and this breeder rack is the first test. Will see what comes of it.
Thanks for your help!
Lance Krueger
Lance,

I was thinking something like Phyllanthus fluitans (it appears to be growing very well in discus water here) or similar floating plant with no roots...plan to add some sort of mechanical filtration after this refugium if it is used...or else!!!

Then inside the tank I would put whats called E. najas in the bottom-middle area. I have a mini aqualight that I use on the side of my 10g tank under my tank stand. If top cover makes the tank too dark you can always add some light like that to the side of the tank...although your tank seems to be a bit larger ;) Thinking more about the moss...I havent grown it in warmer waters.

These plants I suggest are what I would call nuisance plants. I only suggest them because they are very easy to care for. I think it is safe to say the only maintenance would be removal of biomass.

Cherry shrimp (Neocaridina denticulata sinensis (red)
...small but only for juveniles+. I would put a sponge on the intake of the refugium outflow. I take an AquaClear sponge from a 110 model and carve them to fit. In my experience this doesnt restrict flow that much and doesnt get clogged easily. Get the shrimp from another hobbyist there are many people here from Texas someone may be local.

I cant stress enough that there should be a sponge on the outflow of this refugium. This refugium is an excellent idea and great addition to something like a wet/dry sump for discus setup.

Thank you for the compliment I am thrilled to help it sounds like a splendid setup!

Frank
 

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An interesting thread and concept ... I also breed discus (and angelfish), plus keep planted tanks, reef tank and a pond. I think your best source of inspiration and solution may come from the pond arena. Vegi filters are an established practice for keeping koi and goldfish ponds. What I've found is that Water Hyacants and Water Celery are efficient nitrogen consumers. Both thrive in my pond and bog ... water celery in particular is a nuesence in that it overruns my Iris'. Water Hyacants float in the pond, water celery grows in the pea gravel of my bog filter and in my Rubbermaid 100 gallon stock tank filter. Perhaps if you set up a sump/filter using a 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank, filling with a substrate such as pea gravel or lava rocks (biological filter medium) and grow Water Celery on this, and the use this in a central filtration setup, you'll have an effective vegi/biofilter. Add a second tank with just Water Hyacants and this could be very effective. Keep in mind, however, these plants require STRONG light, but they are both recognized as effective nitrogen removers/consumers. You really need to have volume if your going to filter a number of tanks. That is why I recommend the Stock Tank sumps. Plus, they are sturdy, easy to clean and you can pick them up relatively cheap if you look around.

You might want to consider adding free-floating Hygrophila to you tanks ... I have cuttings from my 55 "show" tank that have literally tanken over two 70 gallon growout tanks ... I illuminate these tanks with shoplights with 40 watt full spectrum bulbs, and the stuff grows like crazy. Even though I rarely test my water parameters (maybe 10 years ago???), I have to believe this stuff also consumes nitrogen.

Let me know if you pursue this avenue ... I'd be interested to know how you make out.

Jeff Richard
 

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Keep in mind that in a reef setup with a refugium, the bulk of your filtration is taking place in the tank itself ... the reef! The rock and sand house the bacteria that does the filtration. The refugium with chaeto (a macro algae that consumes nitrate) is the secondary filter. So int a hatchery setup, you need to move that filtration out of the breeding and growout tanks ... which is why I recommended the 100 gallon stock tanks as sumps. Put both you bio and veggi filtration in there ...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Brilliant,
Yes, I see the floating plant in that post. Seems rather small. I was thinking something like the roots of Water Hyacinth and Water Lettuce would act somewhat as mechanical filtration hanging all over the place in the fuge. Should catch quite a bit of debris, but I don't know. Just guessing.
Nuisance weeds are fine with me. I'm not trying to do this for looks. :) But I guess I would like to start to learning about growing plants some, as I've always wanted a huge planted discus tank, with some of my more impressive discus in it. Maybe this will be a start, in a very basic way.
Yes, I was thinking about a strainer or sponge. But I was afraid that it would keep any live food from getting into the breeder tanks. So wasn't sure if I should just have a bulkhead overflowing from the refugium to the sump (where the return pump is), or if I should cover it with a sponge as you mention. What are the problems you forsee if I don't?
Again, thank you so much for your thoughts.
Lance Krueger
 

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What are the problems you forsee if I don't?
Again, thank you so much for your thoughts.
Lance Krueger

Evasive weeds clogging your water passages like they do in nature.


The larger the floater the better...sounds like you have plenty of room for it. I would just set a trap for the shrimp and feed your catch to the discus.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Jeff Richard,
Good to see you here, I've seen your posts over at Simply Discus for a long time and always relish your advice. Saw your repost over there. I'll repost over there too so both the discus world and plant world might learn something from this. Thanks.
Wow, you have a lot of diversity in your fishkeeping. I'd like to have more than just discus, but I'm just so obsessed with them. Can't bring myself to committing a tank to anything else. But once my fishroom is full, it's full. So I'll have to expand to a planted tank in the house, and maybe a reef tank too. And then a pond for the yard. Since I live here at the bottom tip of Texas, down by Mexico, in the warm temperatures, I've thought about a discus pond. Wouldn't that be cool! I'd like it big enough so I could swim with them. I've actually dreamed of installing a full scale swimming pool, and having it for discus. Wife doesn't think that's a great idea, so I guess we need a swimming pool for the kids and a pond for me. One day....
Actually, a lot of the searching I've done on the internet has been to pond sites. I've seen the veggie filters there, and how they use lava rock and pea gravel in Rubbermaid stock tanks, but with my setup, I really don't have the room for it. I actually thought about doing a veggie filter outside the fishroom, in the great outdoors. Wouldn't have to worry about lighting, since the sun is the best light of all. I would just have to have a separate pump to send water to the outside veggie filter. I have a window in my garage/fishroom which I could crack open and run a feed and return hose to and from the veggie filter. I was just concerned about temperature fluctuations since it would be outside. Especially during winter. But down here in deep South Texas, we don't have all that bad of a winter. But I may need to heat the veggie filter during the winter, which isn't a big deal, I guess. The concept I am describing above is for a sump built directly beneath my breeder rack. Thus the 8 foot by 3 foot footprint of the sump, which is the footprint of my pallet rack that my breeder tanks are on. I only have 8 foot ceilings, so I have a top rack of seven 29 gallon breeder tanks, and a bottom rack which is about waist high to me. So below this bottom shelf of tanks is about 17 1/2 inches of space. So I figured I'd make the sump to where I have a few inches of working room, so I'm thinking the water level will be about 12 inches in the sump/refugium. But, if I want to take this a step further, I could always plumb in an outside stock tank veggie filter as you describe. But I think I'll just start out with this under the rack setup first. I think it may be overkill as is. Should this be successful, I may do it for my growout tanks and my adult tanks.
I think I understand how the reef setups work better now, because their bio filtration is in the sand and live rock, as you mention. So my biological filtration will need to be in my wet/dry trickle filters, which I'm planning to have as overhead bio towers above my breeder tanks. Since my sump is so shallow, and I have such limited space, I didn't have any height to put properly working bio towers. So I figured I'd put them in unused space above and behind the breeder tanks. Then the water from the bio towers will just flow into the tanks and through gravity head to the refugium and sump. One pump will run the whole deal.
Thank you so much for the info you provided. Very helpful info.
And yes, I will make sure to post my setup, when I get it done, here and on the discus forums. Maybe it will get the ideas flowing through people's minds, and someone can improve on my test setup. We'll all learn from that!
All the best,
Lance Krueger
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Brilliant,
I figured that's why you wanted the sponge/strainer. I figured with something like water hyacinth or water lettuce, it should keep them from getting into the sump and then into the pump. But even then, I'm still thinking about using a large strainer (maybe DIY) because one of those large leaves from the lettuce or hyacinth could clog the outflow from the refugium. So I thought I'd have two overflows from the refugium to the sump, and each would have very large strainers that would give me lots of diffusion so it would stay unfouled. Plus, I would have a sponge on the pump, and maybe even a mesh bag around that to keep junk out. Then, I would design the retaining wall between the refugium and the sump about an inch or two lower than the exterior walls of the entire sump/refugium and can overflow the wall if both the bulkhead/strainers got plugged up. I will also have an overflow designed into the refugium that will go to my drain, if there are any more overflow issues than that. Fail-safes for my fail-safes. And plus, this is in my garage, so I don't care if the floor gets wet. It stays wet with all my water changes anyway. :) I just don't want the pump burning up, or something like that.
Thanks,
Lance
 

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Given your space restrictions, I would suggest massing Hygrophila in your sump ... with 80 watts of full spectrum lighting over each of 2 70 gallon tanks, I literally have hygro growing out of the tank. All I dii was put extra cuttings in the tank ... free floating ... and let them go. I have to remove a bowling ball size mass of plants every month or so. I'm thinking that more nutrients would be faster growth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Jeff Richard,
Do you know which kind of Hygrophila? I just have some basic plant books, which list three Hygrophilas. It says that Hygrophila corymbosa and Hygrophila difformis will handle temps up to 82 degrees F, and that Hygrophila polysperma will handle up to 86 degrees F. Do you know which one you've got? The text I'm reading is that they want 2-3 watts per gallon. But your setup sounds like you're barely over one watt per gallon. Maybe since they're free floating, and up at the surface, they are receiving more light than if they were planted in the substrate. Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Lance Krueger

Given your space restrictions, I would suggest massing Hygrophila in your sump ... with 80 watts of full spectrum lighting over each of 2 70 gallon tanks, I literally have hygro growing out of the tank. All I dii was put extra cuttings in the tank ... free floating ... and let them go. I have to remove a bowling ball size mass of plants every month or so. I'm thinking that more nutrients would be faster growth.
 
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