[houseofcards]

I'd like to reiterate that I've yet to see an EI-dosed tank that has very good plant growth that hasn't hidden all the growth issues through careful pruning, including Tom Barr's. Even his plants suffer from tox but he insists that kind of growth is normal and that these plants need careful pruning to remove all the ugly bits. I've pointed the tox symptoms out to him but he keeps denying it; claims dying old leaves with lack of color, covered with GDA is from lack of light. Lack of light in his thanks? So if it appears that there are some ppl who dose EI levels of traces, it's just an illusion because anyone can show photos that appear healthy that hide all the issues.

@burr740

See and I know your understand but this why these threads are always met with such resistance.

 

[burr740]

I'd like to reiterate that I've yet to see an EI-dosed tank that has very good plant growth that hasn't hidden all the growth issues through careful pruning, including Tom Barr's. Even his plants suffer from tox but he insists that kind of growth is normal and that these plants need careful pruning to remove all the ugly bits. I've pointed the tox symptoms out to him but he keeps denying it; claims dying old leaves with lack of color, covered with GDA is from lack of light. Lack of light in his thanks? So if it appears that there are some ppl who dose EI levels of traces, it's just an illusion because anyone can show photos that appear healthy that hide all the issues.

Please show us some pictures of Barr's plants with tox. And please point it out specifically for those of us who dont know enough to spot it otherwise.

And while you're at it, show us some examples of the same plants in your own tank looking any better, or anybody's tank for that matter. This will allow everyone to see what the plants are really supposed to look like.

 

[Solcielo lawrencia]

I would encourage you and others to do the experiments and see for yourself what causes certain symptoms. When you discover it for yourself, you'll no longer deny your own eyes. No one can see for you. I'm only here to tell you that perception is not necessarily reality.

 

[burr740]

I would encourage you and others to do the experiments and see for yourself what causes certain symptoms. When you discover it for yourself, you'll no longer deny your own eyes. No one can see for you. I'm only here to tell you that perception is not necessarily reality.

Im not denying anything. If you've been remotely paying attn, you are well aware that Im as firm a believer in "micro-tox" as anyone.

You just stated that Barr's plants have tox issues. All Im asking for is a pic or two to show it. You've obviously seen the evidence, why not point it out for the rest of us?

 

[houseofcards]

...'m only here to tell you that perception is not necessarily reality.

Oh yes, now I get it. Keeping planted tanks using EI-type dosing is a magic show, it's not real. If I need to get out my microscope to see the toxicity your talking about then YOUR perception is not the reality most of us enjoy!

 

[dukydaf]

Frankly, I am quite disappointed. I had hoped you ( happi) are one person who can rationally present the results of an experiment and not get emotional, make generalizations and speak from the glass tower. Maybe we still have to learn from Zapins-sensei. The tone of your posts seems increasingly defensive and is changing the focus from your experiments to vague statements, opinions, us vs them wars and red pills. You are not in danger, relax. We just want to find out more about your experiment design and what you dosed. Blame it on a bad night sleep and let us now stop the sermon and start the actual experiments.

I do not believe in any magic ppm. However, when your thread’s title has the word experiments in it I expect to see the details of such experiments. Furthermore, I expect the same action to produce the same result in the same setting every time.

For example: I expect pure H2O to boil at 100*C at 1bar every time. Just the same, I expect the same pure water to boil at 50*C if I have 0,1 bar. If I am at 100*C, 1 bar and my water does not boil it means something is wrong with either the water or my measuring equipment.
Does water boil at 100*C ? Yes, for most applications that is good enough.
Are there other factors that influence this number ? Definitely, many. As you can see I'm with burr740.

Suppose we actually manage to establish correlation between high dosage of CSMB and a certain plant symptom. The fact that some people are able to dose the same CSMB and the same plant shows no problem means that there are other factors that are protective of or increase the symptoms. Or maybe one of those other factors is the real cause under certain conditions?


Regardless, calling one’s experience false just because it does not fit into your explanation is not indicative of an open inquisitive mind… I look at his contribution to this forum, his journals, his plants and he does not seem like one who lacks proof for what he says.

if you ask 99% of the people they will tell you that you needs tons of co2 and lights. if anyone falls under those 99% people, they will continue to defend what they were told and what they learned so far without trying new method.

I would also like to ask @happi where did he find out the that 99% of aquarists are ignorant, laughable and naïve without any experience ? Is it 99% or 99.99% ??? If you provide a % you need to provide the study for your statement. Is it from this forum ? From the people that replied to a thread ? If you have no clue about the precise percentage then just say most, few, many .

Oh I get it, you are part of the 1%... Good for you!!!

 

[Solcielo lawrencia]

Im not denying anything. If you've been remotely paying attn, you are well aware that Im as firm a believer in "micro-tox" as anyone.

You just stated that Barr's plants have tox issues. All Im asking for is a pic or two to show it. You've obviously seen the evidence, why not point it out for the rest of us?

I've already done so. Twice. But I won't be doing it again here on this forum. I was careful so that it minimized the number of eyes because of potential embarrassment. But he just kept on denying it. I'm sure someone reading this who's seen the thread will link you to it if it is still available. It's behind a paywall, too.

 

[DennisSingh]

Why do some people have issues with it, and others do not? No idea. Wish I knew.

It most likely has to do with plant selection. Plant selection, plant selection, plant selection

"Tom Barr has used the term "algaebuster" in connection with certain types of hardy plants. For a fact, he used the term in his 2012 AGA Convention address in passing, and when he said it, I wanted to stop him then and there and pump him for more info. Being left to speculate, I will do so - Plants that are aggressive CO2 competitors and grow really fast - i.e. "weeds". "


here's a good read before it dramatized
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/mem...lk-to-tom-barr/230989-depicting-barr-s-system

pantanal vs anacharis both nutrient hogs yes?

A way to get around this "microtox" , in a way the plants will protect your system.

My take on it

Bump: I'll make a statement...

Any toxicity corresponds and correlates to lighting if you are observing toxicity. In a low light system I can pour in ei and will not matter. I would like to test this actually.

 

[Williak]

Wow I've never seen hostility and divide on these forums like this before.

Until anything is testing reliably and consistently across everyone's tanks, nobody is proven right or wrong.

I understand Happis point of view with not wanting to release his exact numbers so people are forced to experiment on their own. But there are plenty of other experiments just like this taking place across the board. Burrs 75 for example, I've been following his numbers and writing them down... But I know I'm looking at ratios at best to rely on, rather than specific numbers.

Looking forward to seeing if there is ever any evidence/experimentation that everyone considers conclusive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[burr740]

I
Any toxicity corresponds and correlates to lighting if you are observing toxicity. In a low light system I can pour in ei and will not matter. I would like to test this actually.

Purely anecdotal response: The problem with this statement is plants that are most sensitive to tox symptoms arent low light plants - if by low you mean 20-40 uMols or thereabouts - plants like ammanias, AR, high end rotalas and ludwigias, proserpinaca, tonina, etc.

Nevertheless I find that statement to be very curious. Is that from you or a quote from someone else?

Check out this tank I set up last year as a brief root feeder experiment. While the purpose had nothing to do with micros, the results are very telling.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html

Inert sand loaded with Osmocote+, 60ish par, full EI both macros and micros, DIY CO2.

All plants thrived except for dhg and AR. I suspect micros killed the dhg, half the AR did OK. Barely a spec of algae on anything, ever. Pictures to show all of this.

None of the other plants are what I would call micro sensitive (again, purely anecdotal) and there's no way I could put any of the aforementioned 'sensitive" plants in there, and expect them to last more than a week.

But all things considered, the results still blow my mind.

 

[DennisSingh]

Purely anecdotal response: The problem with this statement is plants that are most sensitive to tox symptoms arent low light plants - if by low you mean 20-40 uMols or thereabouts - plants like ammanias, AR, high end rotalas and ludwigias, proserpinaca, tonina, etc.

Nevertheless I find that statement to be very curious. Is that from you or a quote from someone else?

All me in that statement. Most of my writings are anecdotal
I do not test crap, I'm here to grow, then to scape, and helping is in between somewhere in there

I have many influences and one main one, doesn't mean i follow.

explain high end rotalas, and ludwigias, which ones
cause currently i have 1 stem each of both doing well in very low light with no co2 injection, plus they were emmersed and transitioning.
I can definitely test, but if i am wrong, i just screwed my tank over which i've been working on aquascaping slowly for a time bit being
If i am right...I don't even care
Å lot of plants can be grown in lower light which are suspected high light
Only one i've seen thats an actual high light plant is Tonina
pantanal

Yeah all these anecdotal stuff is like half truths. They could be true, but just nothing proven...

I will never fully grasp the complex planted tank

sorry about the random information

Does Barr really dose ei, do these other people really dose ei?
With the amount of plant mass in these tanks, ei is a number, not an excess

 

[burr740]

@StrungOut , it's not letting me quote for some reason


"explain high end rotalas, and ludwigias, which ones"

Rotala mac and mac green, sunset, wallichi, Ammania sp bonsai if you count that as rotala. Ludwigia red, rubin, sphaerocarpa. These are just ones I've personal exp with which seem to be uber sensitive to micros. Not saying they need 100 par, but definitely more than 20 to be at their best.


Speaking of anecdotal, I could actually offer up "proof" for both sides.

See the 20 gallon root feeder tank linked above.

There's your proof that EI micros are not toxic.

See the 75 gallon.

There's your proof that much over .02 ppm 3x week is toxic to many species.

Or could put it differently, there's your proof that .02 ppm csmb is all these plants require. Period.


None of these statements would be true. It is just as wrong to say it cannot possibly be, as it is to say toxicity exists for everyone.

 

[Greggz]

I'd like to reiterate that I've yet to see an EI-dosed tank that has very good plant growth that hasn't hidden all the growth issues through careful pruning, including Tom Barr's. Even his plants suffer from tox but he insists that kind of growth is normal and that these plants need careful pruning to remove all the ugly bits. I've pointed the tox symptoms out to him but he keeps denying it; claims dying old leaves with lack of color, covered with GDA is from lack of light. Lack of light in his tanks? So if it appears that there are some ppl who dose EI levels of traces, it's just an illusion because anyone can show photos that appear healthy that hide all the issues.

Solcielo don't you ever get tired of saying the exact same things over and over hundreds of times?? I mean seriously, I get exhausted reading your posts. Your collective work on the subject must be tens of thousands of words, and yet it never builds a case to any conclusion. Pretty much the definition of blather.....talk long-windedly without making very much sense........long-winded talk with no real substance.

Some even try to give you the benefit of the doubt, and engage in meaningful conversation with you (Burr). Their reward usually is a disparaging response, and to be honest, many times it is delivered in an uncalled for rude tone.

I have this image of you staying up all night staring out the window at the stars and plotting how you will destroy Tom Barr. Why are you so angry at anyone who has success with EI dosing?

 

[Maryland Guppy]

I jumped on the toxicity wagon 6 months ago.
I reduced micros to 1/8 of a dose and continued macros as normal.
Using the PPS Pro method for me. I know it is a little lean.
Also reduced CO2 to around 15ppm based on degassing test method.
Better plant growth has occurred over the last 6 months.

I use PO4 test to validate macros in the water column @ 1ppm.
NO3 free mix is used for macros. Fully stocked but not over.
CSM+B with 10% iron added to the solution for micros.

Just thought to share my experiments.

 

[happi]

Why CaSO3 and not CaSO4 ?



Do you mean plant species or individual plants ? (and I guess you mean affected)

Here is my thinking: In nature, in both animals and plants, there is a large variability of response that cannot be accounted for due to the diverse genetic and environmental background. Plants obtain such diversity through cross-polenization.

In one aquarium we often repeatedly grow bits from the same plant, the plants are vegetative clones meaning that they have the same genetic background. Thus the variability can only be blamed on environmental factors. Again, I ask you @happi, how would you explain the fact that only some stems of the same plant species and some leaves of the same plant suffer from the deficiency/toxicity ?

same reason why some plant prefer softer or harder water, if what you said is true, let's say it is then all the plant should grow equally under same water parameter.

 

[DennisSingh]

same reason why some plant prefer softer or harder water, if what you said is true, let's say it is then all the plant should grow equally under same water parameter.

Can't make that argument here. Your talking different plants, the other is talking 1 plant cloning. I'd like to hear a better answer cause its a really good question

 

[happi]

Can't make that argument here. Your talking different plants, the other is talking 1 plant cloning. I'd like to hear a better answer cause its a really good question

am not a plant expert and neither i know the exact answer, this is like asking the same way why EI dosing cause issue for some and for some it doesn't.

my main goal wasn't to answer these kind of questions, instead i wanted people to try these methods first and see the results for themselves, that way they will get their own answers. this is the one reason i dont like to post thread, because they never get anywhere, instead they end up with debated or turn into defenders. i never defend my work, i always said test it yourself before making any conclusion. but there are some people who answer in way that they are trying to defend their argument and sometime i have to play their way, even though i shouldn't. if i dont respond then they would think i just ignored them.

Bump:

Can't make that argument here. Your talking different plants, the other is talking 1 plant cloning. I'd like to hear a better answer cause its a really good question

maybe the question wasn't clear enough for me to understand, if you could explain it better then that would be great.

meanwhile my question wasn't good enough to make the argument but its something to think about and am looking forward to hear the answer from anyone who could answer it.

 

[happi]

Frankly, I am quite disappointed. I had hoped you ( happi) are one person who can rationally present the results of an experiment and not get emotional, make generalizations and speak from the glass tower. Maybe we still have to learn from Zapins-sensei. The tone of your posts seems increasingly defensive and is changing the focus from your experiments to vague statements, opinions, us vs them wars and red pills. You are not in danger, relax. We just want to find out more about your experiment design and what you dosed. Blame it on a bad night sleep and let us now stop the sermon and start the actual experiments.

I do not believe in any magic ppm. However, when your thread’s title has the word experiments in it I expect to see the details of such experiments. Furthermore, I expect the same action to produce the same result in the same setting every time.

For example: I expect pure H2O to boil at 100*C at 1bar every time. Just the same, I expect the same pure water to boil at 50*C if I have 0,1 bar. If I am at 100*C, 1 bar and my water does not boil it means something is wrong with either the water or my measuring equipment.
Does water boil at 100*C ? Yes, for most applications that is good enough.
Are there other factors that influence this number ? Definitely, many. As you can see I'm with burr740.

Suppose we actually manage to establish correlation between high dosage of CSMB and a certain plant symptom. The fact that some people are able to dose the same CSMB and the same plant shows no problem means that there are other factors that are protective of or increase the symptoms. Or maybe one of those other factors is the real cause under certain conditions?


Regardless, calling one’s experience false just because it does not fit into your explanation is not indicative of an open inquisitive mind… I look at his contribution to this forum, his journals, his plants and he does not seem like one who lacks proof for what he says.



I would also like to ask @happi where did he find out the that 99% of aquarists are ignorant, laughable and naïve without any experience ? Is it 99% or 99.99% ??? If you provide a % you need to provide the study for your statement. Is it from this forum ? From the people that replied to a thread ? If you have no clue about the precise percentage then just say most, few, many .

Oh I get it, you are part of the 1%... Good for you!!!

i never get emotional and neither do i care if anyone take this thread seriously, i wouldn't be posting it if it could help others to understand the issue they are having in their tanks. when i say 99% of those people am not talking about ignorant, am referring to that they are not willing to open their mind and test new methods which they could learn something new and answer their questions.

regarding me claiming my statement is true and the other person statement is false, i dont think i said anything like that, i think i have said: in that case your statement is false too, because when i used the same dose in my tank, it was a disastrous. just because you haven't had the issue it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, if you look at my pictures, you will see some plants are not effected equally, some continue to grow and some stop growing completely. not only that but how did i manage to keep my Blue ram fish and shrimps for over 2+ years when i use to replace them every few months?

This is just straight out a false statement.

I dose high-end EI with csm+b never once saw any of these issues. I've setup other large aquascapes professionally, never once did I see any of these effects. I've used high end EI on both heavily planted and Iwagumi-type setups for 10 years never once saw any of these effects.

now i dont see anything in there, that claim that my method is correct, when i have clearly said try it before you make your conclusion.

but it appears to show that when he dosed that amount, nothing happened, but when i dose that amount things went downhill, now i was answering the same way he was answering me back, now you decide who is correct?

BTW i also fall under those 99% when i was new to this hobby and i still was for the last many years until i started doing my own experiments and observation, maybe me calling out those 99% in a negative way might encourage them to get out of it and try something new, even though i don't think i have said anything bad or offensive. am very open minded to debate and i don't like to defend anyone or one method, but i really wanted people to try something that could change or help them. if i say something about EI dosing then i will gets tons of hate and tons of defender, i use to defend it when i use to think the same way, you can look at some of my posts from many years to confirm it, i use to think EI was best method and i was so blind at that time, that i use to think everyone who disagree with EI is not correct, then i started doing my own stuff and the results are right in front of you guys, am not saying i have mastered at what ever i am doing, neither a professional who could answer all the questions, but i can only share whatever happen in my tank. i did not just do a quick one week test, i had to change lots of things from soil to ferts to see any positive or negative results, so when i rule something out, its from what i observe and what i see with the plants, my conclusions are not based on what i read so far or based on someone method, but rather based on what i could see when i make those changes in my tank, because plant never lie and they responded with answer.

i don't recommend this thread to someone who is coming here to tell us that they dose tons of Ferts without any negative effects, i hope there are people out there who are wiling to try something new.

 

[dukydaf]

@happi , thanks for taking the time to answer.

Your talking different plants, the other is talking 1 plant cloning. …

StrungOut understood it well, I was making a difference between „plants“ and „plant species“ – Plants would be multiple exemplars of S. repens. Plant species Egeria densa, S repens, HC,… One plant species also has genetic diversity inside it, the A reinekii I have in the EU might have come from a different plant than that in the USA. However, if you repeatedly propagate the same plant you end up with vegetative clones.

am not a plant expert and neither i know the exact answer.

let's say it is then all the plant should grow equally under same water parameter.

Fair enough. I don’t know the precise answer, either. Variability in the response of the clones means variability in the environment. In a theoretical sense, I can think of light and CO2 being 2 parameters that vary a lot from one point to the other. However, I don’t have anything other than reasoning, speculation and some random observations. Was hoping you might have some ideas from your own experience. Still it would be interesting to find out why some individual plants seem to be protected from toxicity/deficiency.
My way of seeing things is that if the majority of the individual stems show problems, we can talk about what caused that effect. However if I pick one twisted stem/leaf and I can move my camera 2 inches and have a bunch of healthy plants, than that is misleading and biased reporting of the outcomes.

Yes you are right clonal plants should grow the same if all conditions are equal, not just water parameters, but also flow, light, space, substrate resources…

my main goal wasn't to answer these kind of questions, instead i wanted people to try these methods first and see the results for themselves.

Well, some would like to try it out for themselves but we do not know what methods you used as you refused to accurately and comprehensively describe them.

. this is the one reason i dont like to post thread, because they never get anywhere, instead they end up with debated or turn into defenders... calling out those 99% in a negative way might encourage them

I understand your pain. I often find that some threads from here would be perfect to read as an article in a website or a newsletter. But this is the nature of a forum, it is created with debate in mind, to involve both the expert and the novice, to share experience. In a similar fashion a lecture is created to listen to the sermon and the expert in the field.

In my book, most and 99% is different, one is opinion, one is fact based. Sure encouraging people to test for themselves what they do not believe in is good. But speaking in a negative way to 99% of your audience does not have a place when you are presenting results.

but it appears to show that when he dosed that amount, nothing happened, but when i dose that amount things went downhill, now i was answering the same way he was answering me back, now you decide who is correct?

I would assume neither of you is lying and both of you are telling the truth. I would also assume that the two tanks are different, see burr’s post. There is something else that is hurting your plants and not his. Perhaps something that makes traces more toxic, perhaps something completely unrelated. There are still questions to be answered before expecting people to change how they do things now.

So let us see your experiments, see other experiments, see the differences, test for them and maybe we can conclude something.

 

[happi]

@happi , thanks for taking the time to answer.


StrungOut understood it well, I was making a difference between „plants“ and „plant species“ – Plants would be multiple exemplars of S. repens. Plant species Egeria densa, S repens, HC,… One plant species also has genetic diversity inside it, the A reinekii I have in the EU might have come from a different plant than that in the USA. However, if you repeatedly propagate the same plant you end up with vegetative clones.



Fair enough. I don’t know the precise answer, either. Variability in the response of the clones means variability in the environment. In a theoretical sense, I can think of light and CO2 being 2 parameters that vary a lot from one point to the other. However, I don’t have anything other than reasoning, speculation and some random observations. Was hoping you might have some ideas from your own experience. Still it would be interesting to find out why some individual plants seem to be protected from toxicity/deficiency.
My way of seeing things is that if the majority of the individual stems show problems, we can talk about what caused that effect. However if I pick one twisted stem/leaf and I can move my camera 2 inches and have a bunch of healthy plants, than that is misleading and biased reporting of the outcomes.

Yes you are right clonal plants should grow the same if all conditions are equal, not just water parameters, but also flow, light, space, substrate resources…


Well, some would like to try it out for themselves but we do not know what methods you used as you refused to accurately and comprehensively describe them.


I understand your pain. I often find that some threads from here would be perfect to read as an article in a website or a newsletter. But this is the nature of a forum, it is created with debate in mind, to involve both the expert and the novice, to share experience. In a similar fashion a lecture is created to listen to the sermon and the expert in the field.

In my book, most and 99% is different, one is opinion, one is fact based. Sure encouraging people to test for themselves what they do not believe in is good. But speaking in a negative way to 99% of your audience does not have a place when you are presenting results.



I would assume neither of you is lying and both of you are telling the truth. I would also assume that the two tanks are different, see burr’s post. There is something else that is hurting your plants and not his. Perhaps something that makes traces more toxic, perhaps something completely unrelated. There are still questions to be answered before expecting people to change how they do things now.

So let us see your experiments, see other experiments, see the differences, test for them and maybe we can conclude something.

Now this kind of post is what makes me happier and very well written. Far as the plant toxicity goes, its toxicity also depends on many things which we might ignore and never even consider to be important. For example, if calcium and phosphate levels are higher in tank that suppose to have toxicity from traces, I think somehow it reduces their toxic affect, few things could be happening here, fe and po4 reacting or other things. It is also true that when ph is low and water is acdic, toxicity is even much higher. There are many other factors such as certain element blocking each others when present in higher amount, there are so many things involved in this. I hope more people share their experience so we could have better understanding and hopefully come up with the conclusion.