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Neon killing 20 gal

832 Views 12 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  Roc, 
R
This thread was posted in both Fish and Water Parameters sectiosn but hasn't gotten a response really so I will try here

Ok 1st let me state what I do know

20 gal 24X12X16
2 X 55 watt 10000K on for 6 hours a day
Topfin 150watt heater set for 79 degrees
Prussuized CO2 about 2 bps / Solinoid on/off with lights
HOB Emperor filter

Ferts:
KNO3 -1/4 teaspoon every other day
K2SO4 - 1/4 teaspoon every other day
KH2PO4 - Mixed 1 1/2 teaspoons with 240 ml of water add 4 ml every other day
Plantex CSM+B - mixed 1 tablespoon with 1 cup water, add 4 ml every other day (not same day as other ferts)
Tank up and cycled since June 06
heavly planted:
10 X Rotala sp. 'Colorata'
10 X Lagarosiphon madagascariensis
30 X Myriophyllum matogrossense both ‘Red’ and ‘Green’
2 X Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Brown'
6 X Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig'
10 X Hygrophila polysperma
10 X Microsorium pteropus ‘Narrow leaf ‘
8 X Nesaea crassicaulis
1 X Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'
1 X Nymphaea lotus 'Zenkeri'
5 X Blyxa Japonica
6 X Alternanthera reineckii
Blyxa japonica
Vesicularia dubyana
Vesicularia sp. ''Christmas''
Riccia fluitans

Water Parameters

Tap water:
KH - 40ppm
PH - 7.5

Tank Water:
KH - 30 ppm
PH - 6
Amonia - 0
Nitrate - 20ppm
Nitrite - 0

Drop checker shows a perfect balance (although the test do NOT)

Ok here is the issue, I have 3 Clown Plecos in this tank all been in it for about 6 months all are fine, I have 15-25 Red Cherry Shrimp that have been in tank for about 2 months all fine, I recently tried to add some Neons 1st 12 of which 8 died (I thought I had just gotten some bad fish as they died about 2-3 a day) so I talked to the store and they gave me 10 more (they died 1-2 a day). At this point there is 1 neon left, none of these fish showed any issues before there deaths.

Any ideas?

Obviously I don't want to add more fish until this is figured out, I didn't dose today just in case someone thinks that could be it.
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E
I bet nobody replied because it's a good mystery. Your parameters look great, you have plenty of plants. The only thing you waiver on in your post is the accuracy of your co2 level. I don't use a drop checker, but when plant mass goes up I adjust my co2 up and watch the fish and shrimp. I have two dwarf puffers. If I crank the co2 up to high, one puffer flips it's wig, and the other is completely unphased.

Maybe the particular strain of neons your getting are too sensitive to a possibly slightly high level of co2?

Thats my guess...

Whats the diameter of your co2 line? I used to run 1bps or lower, then I went to a smaller diameter line, and I can't count the bps anymore to achieve the same guestimate of co2 in my tank.
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R
Repost from other thread

crazie.eddie said:
Could you test the water parameters from the tank where you get the neons from? I bought cardinals a long time ago from one LFS, which were cheaper, but the water parameters were different from mine. None of the ones I bought from there survived. I bought more expensive cardinals from another LFS, but they use tap water for them, which happened to be the same as mine. All of which survived.

How do you acclimate them?
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The place I bought them is very close to my home, I don't know what there water parameters are however most of the fish I own came from the same shop (Albany aquairum for those from the bay area very good shop)

When I bring them home I float the bag for about 20-30 mins, then I add a little bit of tank water to the bag and let sit for 5-10 min, I do this 2 or 3 times before i empty the bag through a net and put the fish in the tank. Keep in mind that the fish didn't have a massive death this was slow. I also don't know why the water has such a low PH and KH compared to my tap water



edacsac said:
I bet nobody replied because it's a good mystery. Your parameters look great, you have plenty of plants. The only thing you waiver on in your post is the accuracy of your co2 level. I don't use a drop checker, but when plant mass goes up I adjust my co2 up and watch the fish and shrimp. I have two dwarf puffers. If I crank the co2 up to high, one puffer flips it's wig, and the other is completely unphased.

Maybe the particular strain of neons your getting are too sensitive to a possibly slightly high level of co2?

Thats my guess...

Whats the diameter of your co2 line? I used to run 1bps or lower, then I went to a smaller diameter line, and I can't count the bps anymore to achieve the same guestimate of co2 in my tank.
Click to expand...
Well at least someone is as confussed as me??? The CO2 line is what I got from Rex, I'm not sure however it seems to be what I would call standard as it seems to have fit the diffuser and bubble counters I bought from elsewhaer, it is made by clippard.

The clown loaches I have had for awhile and they reacted badly to to much CO2 (staying at the top of the tank is very strange for these plecos they almost never come out unless it's light out) and they all seem to be fine. I guess your right about the neons since they all came from the same place (and my experence with neons has almost always been short lived) . I guess the next question would be what could I put in instead, although I still can't figure out such a huge drop in PH from tap (7.5) to tank after 1 day (6.0) the amount of CO2 it would take to drop it that much would kill everything moving. I also should point out that there is NO algae, they was some staghorn left over from my algae woes but that was removed and nothing since.

Any ideas oh great tank gods.........................
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J
You didn't mention anything about how well the plants are doing. With the lights, CO2, and ferts, you should be getting a lot of growth and bubble streams from the plants when the lights are on.

You also don't mention water changes -- with your fertilizer schedule, I would expect that you are doing a 50% water change each week. Are you?

I'm also wondering if there might not be enough O2 in the water. I had some die-offs in my planted tank until I started running an airstone when the lights were off.
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JimDantin said:
You didn't mention anything about how well the plants are doing. With the lights, CO2, and ferts, you should be getting a lot of growth and bubble streams from the plants when the lights are on.

You also don't mention water changes -- with your fertilizer schedule, I would expect that you are doing a 50% water change each week. Are you?

I'm also wondering if there might not be enough O2 in the water. I had some die-offs in my planted tank until I started running an airstone when the lights were off.
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Plants are doing great, this is the last pic (end of this thread) http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/44857-learning-20-gal-tons-pics-last-10.html

I thought I put this in but I doa 40-50% water change a week

I used to have an Airstone but since I only run my CO2 6 hours a day with the lights many have told me it's not needed
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N
In my personal experience with Neons; they strictly prefer soft water, What is your Gh like?
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Nightshop said:
In my personal experience with Neons; they strictly prefer soft water, What is your Gh like?
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GH is 80ppm ( I think thats right 4 drops X 20 right)


Oh and here is pic from this morning



If you notice high on the Right side of the tank you can see the green drop checker it turns slightly from the aqua green/blue color during the day as the CO2 is injected but returns to this color diring the night. It certernly is not anywhere near yellow thus showing to much CO2, but that again brings up the question of the tap water Vs tank water stats.
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anthonysquire
How are you acclimating the new fish? I had the same problem with adding new fish to my tank that is pressurized, previously I just floated the bag the new fish came in to even out the temp. This always worked on my non-co2 non-fert. tanks.
My problem was I wasn't using the drip method, which meant that the difference in the ph between the water they were coming from and the water they were going into was to much for the fish to handle. My water was more acidic because of the pressurized co2. Since I've started using the drip method no losses!
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anthonysquire
That drop in ph from tap to tank isn't a fast drop, unless you do a really massive water change, which could be why your existing fish aren't having a problem.
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R
When I bring them home I float the bag for about 20-30 mins, then I add a little bit of tank water to the bag and let sit for 5-10 min, I do this 2 or 3 times before i empty the bag through a net and put the fish in the tank. Keep in mind that the fish didn't have a massive death this was slow.

What is the drip method?
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N
I had a similar experience with dying (not dead yet) Neons I had boughten for my old 20 gallon. I added them and within an hour half of them were floating and diving around doing a bizarre death dance. I checked the Gh and noticed it was quite high so I performed a 50% water change with RO water and I managed to save every Neon in the batch. However, the same group of Neons deal with a Ph drop every day in my 50 gallon as the pressurized C02 lowers the Ph of my tank from around 7.5 to about 6.3, hence my reasoning in suspecting the Gh for most of my Neon problems. The 50 gallon has a Gh of less than 18.1ppm, btw.
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Well my GH seems high I checked this morning and it was 80 ppm so maybe that is it.

As far as the PH drop I am going to try something this weekend when I do my water change. i am going to test the water before. then test the water going in, then test after it goes in. I will then test once every 4 hours and see how fast it drops.
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ianmason said:
Turn the C02 off 20 mins before introducing the fish, this can shock them. I think all cardinals from all over (im in UK) are tough to aclimatise to new water. Every time my LFS's get batches in they quarantine them and I always see a good number die before they go on sale. My Girlfriend bought 6 and 5 died, I have had about 20 in total and a couple always die from each batch.

Saying that I just transfered 2 from my main RO water tank to my girlfriends Tap water tank and they were fine.

Were quite lucky in the UK to have a sp[ecalist fish release device. Basically it slowly sinks and mixes your tank water with the water the fish has come from. it takes about 40 mins. Once full, you net the fish and drain the mixed water to a bucket. ill try to find a link.

http://andysworld.org.uk/aquablog/?postid=249

Here you go...
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So you don't think the PH is to low for Neons, and I have always had better experence with cardnals then Neons, has it been the same for you?
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