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Needle valve redux..Swagelock

2909 Views 14 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  jeffkrol, 
jeffkrol
OK I've read the equipment primer on needle valves and found out a few thing interesting
1)Common known precision ones are expensive (relatively speaking)
2)Needle valves in general are not so expensive.

In my search for a middle ground I came to a conclusion that Swagelok may be the easiest and cheapest to find..

I also came upon a question I'd like answered..
This chart shows the needle performance of the coarser swaglocks B2(4,6) series (w one teeny exception)

any w/ a "R" would have the regulating needle..
anyone care to translate this chart into practical speek.. i.e some approx. of bubbles per secong
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Bettatail
forget about it.
the CV is a relative term regarding the orifice/stem size, small CV with small orifice is the right valve to choose.

swagelok/nupro S, M series metering valve are ok, but not old(discontinued) R needle valve. The R is too big of stem size.
(Nupro 21, 22 series are very good, they are actually swagelok but discontinued models)

As for your chart, it is really easy to tell, concave curve means at lower turns big jump of CV, a convex means small CV increase at lower turns. a convex curve is a typical characteristic of precision metering/needle valve, and it is what you are looking for at the first glimpse.

almost three years I've been trying hard to find and test all the metering valves, and there is a thread about them.
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jeffkrol
Bettatail said:
forget about it.
the CV is a relative term regarding the orifice/stem size, small CV with small orifice is the right valve to choose.

swagelok/nupro S, M series metering valve are ok, but not old(discontinued) R needle valve. The R is too big of stem size.
(Nupro 21, 22 series are very good, they are actually swagelok but discontinued models)

As for your chart, it is really easy to tell, concave curve means at lower turns big jump of CV, a convex means small CV increase at lower turns. a convex curve is a typical characteristic of precision metering/needle valve, and it is what you are looking for at the first glimpse.

almost three years I've been trying hard to find and test all the metering valves, and there is a thread about them.
Click to expand...
The orifice is 0.156 (2x of the other ones) and w/ the "regulating" needle (Cv of 0.0-0.1) I'm just thinking it is "useable" .. moreso than more coarse ones..

From your thread:
Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1 only


Swagelok 20 series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)

Swagelok O series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-OR*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 8 turn full open)

Pneumadyne (Pneumatic Control System), 700 series needle valve, Part number: C070301/C070501/C070601, made in UK
Thanks to kevmo911, who shine the light on this 700 series needle valve and present the .pdf data
Orifice: N/A
Cv: 0.09 (at 12 turn full open)

SMC AS2000 series needle valve, Part number: AS2???-*
Orifice: N/A
Cv: N/A ( At 4 turn SCFM is 0.88 SCFM, after 4 turn flow rate spike)

Clippard MNV-3/4 series needle valve, part number MNV-3* , MNV-4*
Orifice: 0.07"(MNV-3), 0.067"(MNV-4)
Cv: N/A (at 4 turn SCFM is 1, Cv is under 0.03 before 4 turns, after 4 turns, Cv spike)
owned

Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--2 series, Part number 52-2-*, 54-2-*
Orifice: 0.0625"
Cv: 0.082 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open)
Click to expand...
What I was hoping for is a "general guideline".. thanks..

What orifice and what Cv translates into good better best or worthless needle valves..in English.. ;)

As an example and using this as the standard:
Ideal valve 52(brass)/54(stainless steel)--1 series, Part number 52-1-*, 54-1-*
Orifice: 0.0313"
Cv: 0.019 (at 20 turn, 22-24 turn full open, approximate Cv 0.008 -0.009 at 10 turn)

And this for comparison:
2.5 turns 0-.1 Cv.. w/ Angle-pattern valve orifice is 0.156 in. (4.0 mm)

So fair, good, junk useable????

Another comparison:
Swagelok 20 series needle valve, soft seat stem. Part number SS(B)-20R*
Orifice: 0.08"
Cv: 0.09 (at 2.5 turn full open)

The reason I'm asking is I think I can get a bunch of these relatively cheap.. IF they work "well" all can benefit...
2.5 turns 0-.1 Cv.. w/ Angle-pattern valve orifice is 0.156 in. (4.0 mm)
Click to expand...
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AaronT
jeffkrol said:
(at 2.5 turn full open)
Click to expand...
This right there would turn me off. 2.5 turns full open would mean super tiny turns of the knob would allow tons more bps. I have both the 1 series and 2 series Ideal valves and the difference in precision between the two is noticeable. The 2 series is still very usable for our purposes, but it takes much smaller adjustments to get it right. That 2 series still has a lower Cv than the one you are looking at and it takes 9 times more turns to be fully open.

I'm no expert, but if I were you I'd keep looking. If you're looking for budget why not go Fabco?
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jeffkrol
AaronT said:
This right there would turn me off. 2.5 turns full open would mean super tiny turns of the knob would allow tons more bps.
Click to expand...
That doesn't really "always" mean that.. The needle valve I'm looking at only goes from a cV of 0 to .12 .. WHAT does this translate in bps??
If you look at the other curves on the chart I posted , yes 1/2 turn (which really isn't teeny tiny.. ) has a large flow increase..
To be honest I'm not looking for a valve that takes 3 turns to add one bubble.. Seems way to high of precision for most......

AaronT said:
I have both the 1 series and 2 series Ideal valves and the difference in precision between the two is noticeable. The 2 series is still very usable for our purposes, but it takes much smaller adjustments to get it right. That 2 series still has a lower Cv than the one you are looking at and it takes 9 times more turns to be fully open.

I'm no expert, but if I were you I'd keep looking. If you're looking for budget why not go Fabco?
Click to expand...
Fabco doesn't come in the thread size I want......... and I'm tired of going up/down/ w/ reducers ect..

all I was trying to find out is not if it is the best.. because clearly it is not.. but is it useable for good if not precise control.. Can it, in theory, regulate to say 2 bps 3bps ect.. w/ out buying and trying..

Bettatails work is commendable but needs real world "think".. not everyone wants to pay more for a needle valve than they pay for a regulator... ;)

I don't want nor need a "Lexus" but I would like to know if a few good Hondas are out there.. and how to at least get a clear picture....

I woudn't have even started this but the "R" needle intrigued me and it "looked" to be a fairly good option..
................
not great, not perfect but useable..I'm not delivering chemotherapy to my fish here..
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N
jeffkrol said:
That doesn't really "always" mean that.. The needle valve I'm looking at only goes from a cV of 0 to .12 .. WHAT does this translate in bps??
If you look at the other curves on the chart I posted , yes 1/2 turn (which really isn't teeny tiny.. ) has a large flow increase..
To be honest I'm not looking for a valve that takes 3 turns to add one bubble.. Seems way to high of precision for most......



Fabco doesn't come in the thread size I want......... and I'm tired of going up/down/ w/ reducers ect..

all I was trying to find out is not if it is the best.. because clearly it is not.. but is it useable for good if not precise control.. Can it, in theory, regulate to say 2 bps 3bps ect.. w/ out buying and trying..

Bettatails work is commendable but needs real world "think".. not everyone wants to pay more for a needle valve than they pay for a regulator... ;)

I don't want nor need a "Lexus" but I would like to know if a few good Hondas are out there.. and how to at least get a clear picture....

I woudn't have even started this but the "R" needle intrigued me and it "looked" to be a fairly good option..
................
not great, not perfect but useable..I'm not delivering chemotherapy to my fish here..
Click to expand...
You are aware that the fabco nv-55-18 has 1/8 npt ports in angle configuration right? (http://store.fabco-air.com/proddetail.php?prod=NV-55-18) It's as honda as needle valves get and is pretty affordable.
That said, if you really want something that'll work well enough for our purposes, consider the smc as1200. Bettatail has looked into this valve extensively and I use it on my personal rig. It holds a consistent 1bps just fine.
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AaronT
I'm not trying to be contentious. I was trying to answer your question.

You seem to already have the answer you want in mind and are not willing to listen that it won't work well. I've spent enough of my own money trying to save a few dollars only to realize I should have spent a little more later on.

Bps is not a comparable number. Working pressure, tubing size, bubble counter fluid etc... all play a role in bps. Bps is just a means of roughly measuring. In other words, 1 Bps on my setup does not equate to 1 bps on your setup.

If you want a ROUGH comparison I'm running 15 psi working pressure, 1/4" OD / 1/8" ID CO2 tubing, and an Ideal 2 series valve and about 1/4 turn is all it takes to increase by 1 bps. Now factor in the needle valve you are proposing to use is about 8-9 times less sensitive and you'll find it quite tricky to get a low bps count. It might do fine for a large tank.
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Bettatail
jeffkrol said:
That doesn't really "always" mean that.. The needle valve I'm looking at only goes from a cV of 0 to .12 .. WHAT does this translate in bps??
If you look at the other curves on the chart I posted , yes 1/2 turn (which really isn't teeny tiny.. ) has a large flow increase..
To be honest I'm not looking for a valve that takes 3 turns to add one bubble.. Seems way to high of precision for most......



Fabco doesn't come in the thread size I want......... and I'm tired of going up/down/ w/ reducers ect..

all I was trying to find out is not if it is the best.. because clearly it is not.. but is it useable for good if not precise control.. Can it, in theory, regulate to say 2 bps 3bps ect.. w/ out buying and trying..

Bettatails work is commendable but needs real world "think".. not everyone wants to pay more for a needle valve than they pay for a regulator... ;)

I don't want nor need a "Lexus" but I would like to know if a few good Hondas are out there.. and how to at least get a clear picture....

I woudn't have even started this but the "R" needle intrigued me and it "looked" to be a fairly good option..
................
not great, not perfect but useable..I'm not delivering chemotherapy to my fish here..
Click to expand...
jeffkrol said:
Bettatails work is commendable but needs real world "think".. not everyone wants to pay more for a needle valve than they pay for a regulator... ;)
Click to expand...
apparently you have only touched the surface, there are a lot of threads and posts to read...

and most of the high precision metering valves that I paid were between $25-$35, they were $100-$450 retail price. Normally you don't see me use Fabco NV55-18 or Ideal valve on the systems that I built, because I spend less on better metering valves instead of buying the Fabco or ideal which only available from their original source at Full retail.
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jeffkrol
neilshieh said:
You are aware that the fabco nv-55-18 has 1/8 npt ports in angle configuration right? (http://store.fabco-air.com/proddetail.php?prod=NV-55-18) It's as honda as needle valves get and is pretty affordable.
That said, if you really want something that'll work well enough for our purposes, consider the smc as1200. Bettatail has looked into this valve extensively and I use it on my personal rig. It holds a consistent 1bps just fine.
Click to expand...
I'm using 1/4 NPT for most things.. I'd prefer straight.. I just can get the angled ones w/ the "r" needle..not my first choice..

Are you referring to this:
http://www.todaycomponents.com/smc-..._content=pla&gclid=CJnupOi9iL0CFRFnOgodSxEAVw

More thread chasing.. ;)
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jeffkrol
AaronT said:
I'm not trying to be contentious. I was trying to answer your question.

You seem to already have the answer you want in mind and are not willing to listen that it won't work well. I've spent enough of my own money trying to save a few dollars only to realize I should have spent a little more later on.

Bps is not a comparable number. Working pressure, tubing size, bubble counter fluid etc... all play a role in bps. Bps is just a means of roughly measuring. In other words, 1 Bps on my setup does not equate to 1 bps on your setup.

If you want a ROUGH comparison I'm running 15 psi working pressure, 1/4" OD / 1/8" ID CO2 tubing, and an Ideal 2 series valve and about 1/4 turn is all it takes to increase by 1 bps. Now factor in the needle valve you are proposing to use is about 8-9 times less sensitive and you'll find it quite tricky to get a low bps count. It might do fine for a large tank.
Click to expand...
you misunderstood me.... and yes I was waiting for a straight answer in how the Swagelock w/ the "r" valve would measure up.. No more no less actually..

I'm only "comitted" as far as possibly being able to supply "fair" needle valves at a fair price for others.. I'm fine on my own.. ;)

Yes more like it.. ;)
I'm running 15 psi working pressure, 1/4" OD / 1/8" ID CO2 tubing, and an Ideal 2 series valve and about 1/4 turn is all it takes to increase by 1 bps. Now factor in the needle valve you are proposing to use is about 8-9 times less sensitive and you'll find it quite tricky to get a low bps count.
Click to expand...
Actual useage statistics.. I was actually hoping someone ACTUALLY used a Swagelock w/ the "r" needle. Short of that, yes logical comparisons based on the known parameters.. i.e chart above..

just a note on concave vs convex.. Since "we" would rarely use the end points.. linear would be just fine (or very flat convex ;) ) .. at least in the "working" range..
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Bettatail
I do have the "R" valves, and several versions.
I got them not because I wanted to use them on CO2 system, I knew they were not the valves for our co2 application. they are ok for relatively larger flow of air or precisely control of liquid.

BTW, if you are looking for 1/4 npt port swagelok metering valve, you are lucky because there is always 1/4 npt version swagelok M series showing up on evil bay, at good price, they are less popular than the 1/8 NPT version so price lower.
and there is one with vernier handle on evil bay right now, better go find it.
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jeffkrol
Bettatail said:
I do have the "R" valves, and several versions.
I got them not because I wanted to use them on CO2 system, I knew they were not the valves for our co2 application. they are ok for relatively larger flow of air or precisely control of liquid.

BTW, if you are looking for 1/4 npt port swagelok metering valve, you are lucky because there is always 1/4 npt version swagelok M series showing up on evil bay, at good price, they are less popular than the 1/8 NPT version so price lower.
and there is one with vernier handle on evil bay right now, better go find it.
Click to expand...
thanks.. What about this one..
hoke 1335M4B
http://catalog.hoke.com/browser?cid...&itemid=3960&assetid=1049&qlty=&size=&mode=50

Do you agree w/ Mr. Barr??

Hoke 1300
1335M4B (used) (1 degree needle) (1/4" MNPT connections, straight pattern)
Turns: 0.5
Note: disappointing. The metered handle on the 1300's is very small (probably 1/4 to 1/3 the diameter of a standard Swagelok Vernier). Still, a useful valve.
Click to expand...
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N
ive used the hoke millimite 1335. i thought it was crazy precise. very suitable for our use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Bettatail
jeffkrol said:
thanks.. What about this one..
hoke 1335M4B
http://catalog.hoke.com/browser?cid...&itemid=3960&assetid=1049&qlty=&size=&mode=50

Do you agree w/ Mr. Barr??

Hoke 1300
Click to expand...
Hoke 1300 millimite is precise, and it is 18 turns full open(not 0.5 turn in your quote), the vernier handle is small but that doesn't affect its ability to precisely control the co2 flow rate.
Tom Barr don't like it because its small vernier handle, not its ability to adjust the bubble rate.

I had more than 30 of this metering valve two years ago, different versions.
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jeffkrol
Bettatail said:
Hoke 1300 millimite is precise, and it is 18 turns full open(not 0.5 turn in your quote), the vernier handle is small but that doesn't affect its ability to precisely control the co2 flow rate.
Tom Barr don't like it because its small vernier handle, not its ability to adjust the bubble rate.

I had more than 30 of this metering valve two years ago, different versions.
Click to expand...
Thanks...
Wasn't my quote.. ;)

hoke 2355F4Y
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