[Discusluv]

If you have fish you need to do water changes on a regular basis to eliminate toxic levels of nitrates in system.

The nitrate level you have, as indicated from your water test, is most certainly the underlying cause of your fish deaths.
High nitrates kills over time, it is not immediate, by lowering the fishes immune system.
The fish, due to the high nitrates, becomes stressed and as a result succumbs to parasitic or bacterial infections that it would-- if healthy-- be able to combat.

If you are not overdosing ferts, then the high nitrate level is simply due to lack of proper maintenance to your aquarium. I would not only start doing regular water changes, but I would maintenance your filter if this has also not been done as often as it should be.

I change 50% of water volume weekly in all my aquariums, my discus tank gets 2 x50% water changes a week.
To find the range that is best for you (with fish I would try to stay under 20ppm at all times) you may need to do further testing to find out how often need to change to stay within a healthy level.

 

[Discusluv]

Most people doing EI dosing have this level of nitrates- above 80ppm or more? With fish?
This is going to kill your fish long-term. No fish can live in this high of nitrates without eventually succumbing to disease.

 

[Discusluv]

I would respectfully disagree that nitrates are harmless to fish. Im actually surprised that this isnt something that you would agree with given your many years as an aquarist.

Certainly, there are some fish that can take higher nitrates then others, by a sliding scale. Some fish, like those who come from more stagnant waters with high decomposing organics can take much higher levels of organic levels for a longer duration than those that come from areas of clear, fast moving waters or areas very low in dissolved organics ( like discus, geophagus, Uaru's, etc...). I understand with heavily planted tanks one can go longer between water changes as nitrates do not accumulate as quickly, but this does not diminish the fact that once those levels rise, they do become deadly to fish.

However, and I am not at all disputing your years of experience, nitrates in the 50's are much too high long-term to keep most fish healthy. Of course, this isn't something Ive determined out of my own observations--- it is well documented.
Here is an article from a reputable resource that explains this clearly:

Keeping Up with Nitrate | Freshwater | Feature Articles | TFH Magazine®

 

[Discusluv]

Can I see this article by Tom Barr where 100 ppm nitrates is considered fine for tropical fish long-term?
I would like to see the variables considered in this determination.

 

[Discusluv]

"And I am not trying to argue with you. But interestingly, you state you have never experienced it, but have read it. In my opinion, experience and quoting internet articles are two different things. I could start a long list right now of things I consider to be complete myths about Rainbows, yet people regularly quote them as they are gospel. Why? Because they read it somewhere, and it gets repeated. Goes for planted tanks too"

This is not clear to me.

Particularly the part of "you state you have never experienced it, but have read it"

What I meant by "this isn't something Ive determined out of my own observations" is that I do not believe that one persons observations make a truth. Scientific method- verifiable by repetition.

Now if you are saying that I have never subjected my fish to 50ppm nitrates long-term, you are right. I have read enough scientifically based articles and books written by researchers to tell me that the assertion that all fish can take 100 ppm nitrates long-term is false. I could see exceptions,and Ill be generous here, 10% of all fish in the wild ( and that includes the ones we capture and put in the aquarium).

I am not like others where I am unwilling to read articles that refute my own ideas. If you have them- post them! I also have access to scientific- peer-reviewed articles through the University I am affiliated with, so direct me to any articles you know of.

 

[Discusluv]

I thought Tom Barr was a scientist, affiliated with university and wrote peer-reviewed articles? No?

 

[Discusluv]

I am willing to search them out. I am searching for articles as we speak.

Yes, just got finished reading that one Immortal, thanks.

He went to UC Davis just like me

Bump: Oh, Geez Edward--- anti-intellectualism is alive and well in your world isn't it?

 

[Discusluv]

Okay, Greggz-- I am going to do some study on this article you linked from Barr. He cites studies ( albeit quite old) that I will trace back and review. That is exactly what I meant by context-- I want to see the scientific variables that were used to determine the findings.


Why this concerns me: I have just began dosing EI ( Seachem's schedule ) in my tanks with fish that have never experienced nitrates over 10 ppm. This is the fourth day. I tested my nitrates last night and they were 20 ppm. This made me very nervous. Im wondering by the 7th day what these nitrates will be and the detrimental effects on my fish: discus, geophagus, biotodoma cupidos, corydoras eques, wild African tetras from the Congo River. So yeah, you can say that I will be initiating a new and unfamiliar kind of experience--- higher nitrates than I typically allow in my aquarium..

Bump: "Research paper is valid when fits one’s narrative"

So does this mean that Tom Barr's article is only true because it fits his narrative?

 

[Discusluv]

@Greggz I agree with you about that type of person Greggz and I am not one of those people. I am not arguing for arguments sake. My curiosity level goes further than that. I want to know what is underneath.

"There are countless threads about fish health relationship to NO3 levels with references to hundreds of scientific research documents pointing clearly in one direction. But no, the little opposing group will still try to dismiss it based on a claim that no research was conducted on their own glass box and also not in their living room".
@Edward: What countless articles, hundreds you say, are you speaking of here to establish the ( "health relationship"? What does "health" mean in terms of nitrates?)

If you know of hundreds, Im willing to read them, give me a link, a name of an author, etc...
I will read them.

I thought these scientific articles were, to you, just data twisted to advance the predetermined conclusion of the researcher? So, are these hundreds of articles only valuable because they confirm your ideas?
Lets be consistent here.

 

[Discusluv]

Thanks Edward-- much obliged for providing these links.

 

[Discusluv]

Okay, Edward. Read the first article provided.


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5eb8/62b20729b804521991a7567eb38a96629ec4.pdf

In the abstract it asserts that: "Nitrate toxicity in aquatic fish increases with increased nitrate concentrations and exposure times." Furthermore, the abstract claims that "A nitrate concentration of 10 mg NO3-N/l (USA federal maximum level for drinking water) can adversely affect, at least during long-term exposures, freshwater invertebrates (E. toletanus, E. echinosetosus,
heumatopsyche pettiti, Hydropsyche occi-dentalis), fishes (Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha,Salmo clarki), and amphibians (Pseudacris triseriata, Rana pipiens, Rana temporaria,Bufo bufo). Safe levels below this nitrate concentration are recommended to protect sensitive freshwater animals from nitrate pollution.

These findings are further reiterated in conclusion.

Can you please point me to the area of article that was to support higher nitrate levels as not harmful to fish?

 

[Discusluv]

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/sites/defaul...ty effects on freshwater aquatic species .pdf


Look at table 5.1 on page 16 titled "Guideline derivations for Nitrate-N."

We are speaking of Nitrate (MG NO3-N/L which converts to commensurate value of 1ppm) between:
1.0-1.5 Pristine environments
2.4- 3.5 Environment has a range of human interaction w/ little harmful effects to aquatic-life.
3.8-5.6 Environments with naturally occurring seasonal disturbances.
6.9-9.8 Measurably degraded seasonally elevated levels of nitrates 1-3 mo. of year.
20-30 Environments that are significantly degraded. Probable chronic effects on multiple species.

20-30 ppm Nitrates is the high measure with "chronic effects on multiple aquatic species".


Im confused.

 

[Discusluv]

I will go back to the article that Greggz posted, but will take some time looking at the studies Barr refers to in his article- not getting too far with the other ones Ive looked at today. No where, in fact.

 

[Discusluv]

I typed in an answer and lost it- Grrrr- Ill try again.

Bump: The 180 gallon has a light I have not been able to determine its capacity ( its PAR?).

It is a 72 " Licah Planted Led Light. Here are its specs:

https://www.amazon.com/LICAH-AQUARI...75T9PGHS?tag=vs-powersports-convert-amazon-20

In 180g I have:
Valisneria Italian and Leopard
Lagendera Meedboldii
Echin. Ozelot and Frans Stoffel
Crypt. Undulata and Spiralis
Anubias hastifolia, coffeefolia, and bleheri
Java Fern Standard leaf and Needle

Not sure- are these low light plants?

In 60 g. I have 2-24" Finnex Planted Plus SE

Anubias butterfly, pinto, coffeefolia
Java fern Standard leaf
Italian and Leopard Val
Crypt. Spiralis and Green Gecko
Nymphea- Sulphurea Okeechobee

Would this be low light? Would my light be at least medium. It is 24 inch from surface.


PS: No, not high tech, low tech.

Here are a couple pictures of the 180 gallon

The 60 gallon:

I know--- they need some work

 

[Discusluv]

Thank you @Greggz
That makes me very happy you like it.
I had a bare tank while they were juveniles, but once they reached adult size I planted it.

 

[Discusluv]

Im sorry @Edward.
I misunderstood your position because I was paying too much attention to the data and not to what you were telling me ( missed posts, even). Looking back now I see you were giving me articles to express the toxicity relationship between high nitrates and aquarium life. Right?
No wonder I was so confused by your choice of articles.

And if Im still wrong-- I give up.