[Tanks!]

Hi! I’ve been keeping RainbowFish for about four years. I got them all from a very reputable breeder. They were varied (his leftover breeders from the previous year), adult, and lovely.

About two years in, my fish started to develop a disease of some kind. I treated the whole tank with a general fungus med (can’t remember the name now) and some of the totally recovered, but especially the Boesemani males developed what at first looked like a few missing scales, then open sores, and then almost tumors.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a picture. And recently, I tore down the whole tank, rinsed ALL the black blasting sand, put it back in the tank, and put my remaining fish in, only to get an ich breakout. ������ Lost 7 fish.

This was then followed by a huge algae bloom. But now, in the crystal clear water thanks to a UV sterilizer (which I’m still running) I seem to see the telltale missing scales on one side of my remaining Boesmani male.

Not too recently, someone posted pictures that looked a lot like my poor sick fish of yore when their disease was at its height. I think it was Gary Lange who came on and said it was Tuberculosis, and to cull immediately.

SO: my questions today were these: IF it’s Tuberculosis, where did it come from and where does it lodge itself? Is it genetic? Passed fish to fish? Resident in the water column? Carried by germs in the plants (all new, from other vendors, except one crypt that was in there for awhile, but I took out a month ago)?

I got a response on a FB group devoted to Rainbows to read a 24- page long, technical, but very informative article on mycobacterium and the show seemed to fit, and also presented a hopeless scenario. https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/My...GUbkxm9WQvlOXKfEtWhtpacUfGstJqbFn2YpYmxknbnCw

Here’s what I posted after reading it: “SO. I read the whole thing. VERY helpful... in some ways. I understand the scope of the infectious bacteria and I think my Boesemani have had (and my last one does have) it. Now. Am I to understand that 1) myco is ubiquitous in hobby aquaria and 2) because I have this infected rainbowfish I need to euthanize him and all other fish I have and “start clean” — which means, since the germ is on my plants, my filters, and my sand, as well as on aquarium surfaces, that I must dispose of all plants and treat the tank with chlorine chemicals (that have proven largely ineffective...) and then start over with “clean” stock—except about 20%-30% of all stock worldwide fish traded are already infected? Help. If this is the only answer, I’ll just take the tank down and be done with fish keeping, I guess.“

There was silence for about 2 hours. Then a helpful member offered this: “ Hi Marcia, don't give up, please read the link to Diana Walstad's experience on Mycobacteriosis: https://dianawalstad.com/2017/04/27/mycobacteriosis-in-aquarium-fish/

If you’ve read this far, my question is this: what, if anything, can you offer as either corroboration for the “shut it down” approach, or the UV approach? Looking for those who have actually wrestled with this disease and can offer at least anecdotal wisdom. TIA!

 

[Immortal1]

Wow, just wow. Thought for sure once you had the UV going and clear water your problems would be behind you. I did not read the entire 24 page technical, but I got the point. I could not link up with the Walstad article, but hopefully it offers some positives.

Honestly, I have little to no advice to offer - only an electronic shoulder / screen.

 

[Tanks!]

Wow, just wow. Thought for sure once you had the UV going and clear water your problems would be behind you. I did not read the entire 24 page technical, but I got the point. I could not link up with the Walstad article, but hopefully it offers some positives.

Honestly, I have little to no advice to offer - only an electronic shoulder / screen.

Me, too. It’s SUPER discouraging. I was up in the night sorrowing. I feel sad for the poor fish I have to kill today. I feel sad that one of the beauties in my life seems now to be beyond repair and must be given up entirely.

At this moment, I am not planning to kill the otherwise healthy fish in my tank. I just don’t see the point. I’ve canceled my order with IT. And, I’m not going to buy more fish, and will probably convert to a crypt tank that doesn’t require me to have my hands in it much for maintenance. I’ll leave the UV I have running, I guess. Eventually, I’ll probably just take it down. I’ll have to junk all the filters, etc., but I can resell the lights and some of the equipment, like the stand and tank itself (which can be sterilized). After 50+ years of fish keeping, this is a sad way to end.

Linn: Your sympathy and support mean a lot. THANKS for being there.

 

[Immortal1]

Not a problem - happy to help where I can.
I understand having to put one of them down - probably for the best.

I think your plan to keep the other healthy fish is a good plan (just my opinion). Your idea of a lower maintenance tank is sound for this situation. As for the remaining fish - why not give them a chance. Life finds a way.

If I could suggest, see who has some Anubias Nana available. Tough plant, slow growing and attaches to wood very well. I started out with a dozen or so leaves from Phil Edwards. A couple years later it's now in the wifes tank (probably 30-40 leaves) and my tank (100+ leaves). A couple different crypts would be a nice addition as well. Not sure of the growth rate of your plant on the far left but I do like the bright green color. Another good, low maintenance plant would be Hygrophila Corymbosa Compacta - I have some in all 3 of my tanks. In my low tech 20g tank I could probably go 4 months+ without ever touching it. Just let it grow.

As for the filters, etc I am a little surprised that bleach or strong peroxide would not resolve the issue. Those products seem to be capable of killing just about anything organic/living.

 

[Greggz]

Very sorry to see you going through this.

I can offer my thoughts, but keep in mind this is just my opinion.

It seems just about every time someone posts a pic of a sick Rainbow, it's immediately identified as TB. The truth is there is no way to know for sure without a thorough examination.

Here's the thing. Sometimes fish die. It happens. Maybe they are genetically weak, have weakened immune system, or who knows what.

I've had a few fish die of similar looking illness over the years. Bow gets a lesion, gets worse, then passes away. Meanwhile the rest of the tank is healthy and very long lived. It happens.

If it were me, I would not cull the remaining fish. Give it some time and see where things go. You may find the remaining are just fine and in time it will be a distant memory.

I will say this. It may not be popular, but I have always erred on the side of euthanizing early rather than later. I've kept Bows for almost 4 decades, and know a sick fish that will not recover when I see it. I look at it as the fish is not going to make it, and it is for the greater good of the tank to remove it sooner rather than later.

And with the percentages that they say have TB, surely my tank would have had it at some time. But I have never torn down a tank because of illness.

Again, just my thoughts based on my experience.

On a side note, I know what it is like to lose a bunch of fish to ich. I went through an episode not that long ago (details in my journal) and it was really painful. Lost some long lived beautiful Bows. It stinks. But now I am growing out some new species I wanted to get at some point, and now it's a blip in journey of the tank.

 

[Deanna]

Interesting challenge. I couldn't open the Diana Walstad link, but is this the article: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/mycobacteriosis-the-stealth-disease213231 ?

In the article, she claims to have eradicated it with a UVS. Too bad that she was chased away a couple of years ago. Is your UVS a "Level One" UVS?

 

[varanidguy]

Interesting challenge. I couldn't open the Diana Walstad link, but is this the article: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/mycobacteriosis-the-stealth-disease213231 ?

In the article, she claims to have eradicated it with a UVS. Too bad that she was chased away a couple of years ago. Is your UVS a "Level One" UVS?

That was a real shame (Walstad being chased away). People can't keep their egos in check and ruined a great opportunity for everyone.

@OP: I've recently had some random, inexplicable rainbow die-offs. It's very frustrating. One of my favorite male parkinsoni and a Gary Lange lineage male praecox were among the casualties. But with these, there was little-to-no outside signs of illness. The parkinsoni just dying out of nowhere when it was swimming and acting fine a moment before its demise, and the praecox started breathing heavily and died 20 minutes later. No missing scales, lesions, or anything of the sort.

I really wish we had better answers for you.

 

[Discusluv]

I agree with @Greggz statement that mycobacterium is often the first thing that people call when they see skin lesions. But, there are far more common (non-chronic) bacterial diseases of the aquarium that are most likely the culprit. The most common being aeromonas, pseudonomas, and flexibacter columnaris ( of which there are 4 types).

Your description of "tumors" is curious. This is not typical of symptoms on effected fish. There are nodules noticeable on liver, kidneys, spleen on examination of inner organs after death-- but, not on body of fish. Tumors on fish are more associated with lymphocistis which is a viral disease. Young, healthy fish can survive this viral disease; but, stressed, genetically weak or older fish will often die from the secondary conditions they catch from the disease lowering their immunity. Again, a virus that doesnt kill directly, but lowers immunity to the more common diseases that are found in the aquarium. Lymphocystis would be consistent with your treating fish for external symptoms and seeing a recovery from what looked like fungus on body. Most likely what you treated with was nitrofurazone or doxycycline which are the two active ingredients found in many LFS. Lymphocystis is a viral infection, it is not a disease that the fish recovers from completely, but it with them throughout their lifetime( even when fish non-symptomatic)..

Bump:

Interesting challenge. I couldn't open the Diana Walstad link, but is this the article: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/mycobacteriosis-the-stealth-disease213231 ?

In the article, she claims to have eradicated it with a UVS. Too bad that she was chased away a couple of years ago. Is your UVS a "Level One" UVS?

UV sterilizers are the single best way to keep pathogens in check.

 

[Asteroid]

UV sterilizers are the single best way to keep pathogens in check.

Agree, if I'm setting up a tank with some really nice fish I don't know why you wouldn't use a UV from the getgo.

 

[Hujeta]

What's the consensus here, once you get it in the tank there's no escaping? Or more that it'll arbitrarily spread between fish that potentially hurt their scales etc?

 

[Tanks!]

Not a problem - happy to help where I can.
I understand having to put one of them down - probably for the best.

Yup; my amazingly wonderful husband did the deed this AM. The fish was swimming around and seemed just fine, but I’ve seen how this disease progresses and I felt sure he’d end up dead while infecting the tank further. Glad I didn’t have to do it, nonetheless.

I think your plan to keep the other healthy fish is a good plan (just my opinion). Your idea of a lower maintenance tank is sound for this situation. As for the remaining fish - why not give them a chance. Life finds a way.

That’s my husband’s suggestion for now. The question is... for how long before I add ANY new fish? Weeks? Months? Years? I like @Greggz comments... just don’t want to be stupid or unable to face the music, if indeed that’s the tune that’s playing.

If I could suggest, see who has some Anubias Nana available. Tough plant, slow growing and attaches to wood very well. I started out with a dozen or so leaves from Phil Edwards. A couple years later it's now in the wifes tank (probably 30-40 leaves) and my tank (100+ leaves). A couple different crypts would be a nice addition as well. Not sure of the growth rate of your plant on the far left but I do like the bright green color. Another good, low maintenance plant would be Hygrophila Corymbosa Compacta - I have some in all 3 of my tanks. In my low tech 20g tank I could probably go 4 months+ without ever touching it. Just let it grow.

If I switch to crypts and anubias nana (which I also love) I’m going to need to considerably lower my light strength! Might not even need my T5s at all. That’s not BAD, it’s just... different. Would I keep needing to inject CO2 in that case?

As for the filters, etc I am a little surprised that bleach or strong peroxide would not resolve the issue. Those products seem to be capable of killing just about anything organic/living.

If you read Walsted’s article (here’s the full link: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/mycobacteriosis-the-stealth-disease213231) you’ll see that Myco is bioshielded and therefore REALLY REALLY hard to kill. Also, as Walsted points out, bleaching, etc. and general sterilizing procedures commonly recommended might be making room for NTM (non-tuberculous myrobacteria). IF you believe Walsted. Which Gary Lange does not. Hard to know whom to believe. This article is actually a shortened form of her longer, better documented, and more technical version here: https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with @Greggz statement that mycobacterium is often the first thing that people call when they see skin lesions. But, there are far more common (non-chronic) bacterial diseases of the aquarium that are most likely the culprit. The most common being aeromonas, pseudonomas, and flexibacter columnaris (of which there are 4 types).

I would LOVE for that to be the right answer! BUT: Since you can’t tell what it is, is it responsible to bring in new fish and “see what happens”? This is the issue for me right now. You are right that I don’t KNOW it’s TB, but I also don’t know it’s not. There is also the added risk of human infection. I’m not generally a germaphobe AT ALL, but it is (or, I guess, could be) a thing and I need to consider risks/rewards.

Your description of "tumors" is curious. This is not typical of symptoms on effected fish. There are nodules noticeable on liver, kidneys, spleen on examination of inner organs after death-- but, not on body of fish. Tumors on fish are more associated with lymphocistis which is a viral disease. Young, healthy fish can survive this viral disease; but, stressed, genetically weak or older fish will often die from the secondary conditions they catch from the disease lowering their immunity. Again, a virus that doesnt kill directly, but lowers immunity to the more common diseases that are found in the aquarium. Lymphocystis would be consistent with your treating fish for external symptoms and seeing a recovery from what looked like fungus on body. Most likely what you treated with was nitrofurazone or doxycycline which are the two active ingredients found in many LFS. Lymphocystis is a viral infection, it is not a disease that the fish recovers from completely, but it with them throughout their lifetime( even when fish non-symptomatic).

UV sterilizers are the single best way to keep pathogens in check.

So... “tumors” might have been the wrong term. They were places where, first scales were missing, some on the side of the body, and then on some, on their mouths. They looked, swam, ate, etc. fine. For months. But over time, these places on their bodies developed raw, red flesh... I think they would better have been termed “lesions.” I did not know whom to ask, so I didn’t ask anyone... probably stupid of me. This was AFTER I had treated for what was obviously a tank wide, fungal/bacterial infection brought on my poor husbandry in a very busy season of my life. I had an adult, emerald rainbowfish who made a full recovery from that tank-wide episode. The two Boesemani males who got the ulcerated flesh developed them afterwards. I suppose it could be that their immunities were lowered from the tank-wide episode, and I could further postulate that the fish I just euthanized was weakened by the ich battle and algae bloom that I just went through. I’m not sure. Best I can do, not being an expert in any way.

I love my UV sterilizer. It’s an in-tank one, not expensive, and is running a 13 w bulb rated for 150 gallons. Mine is a 120 tank.

Bump:

That was a real shame (Walstad being chased away). People can't keep their egos in check and ruined a great opportunity for everyone.

@OP: I've recently had some random, inexplicable rainbow die-offs. It's very frustrating. One of my favorite male parkinsoni and a Gary Lange lineage male praecox were among the casualties. But with these, there was little-to-no outside signs of illness. The parkinsoni just dying out of nowhere when it was swimming and acting fine a moment before its demise, and the praecox started breathing heavily and died 20 minutes later. No missing scales, lesions, or anything of the sort.

I really wish we had better answers for you.

Thanks. I have long wondered about the story of Walsted being chased away... I don’t know any details. My first planted tank was a Walstad tank (journal is on this forum) but it wasn’t very rewarding long term, for me, because low tech = kind of boring plants.

I know fish die. My issue is whether my tank is terminally infected, as the article on the FB Group Rainbowfish Live that I linked above suggests, or whether I can reasonably take a chance and buy some new rainbowfish and soldier on.

 

[Tanks!]

What's the consensus here, once you get it in the tank there's no escaping? Or more that it'll arbitrarily spread between fish that potentially hurt their scales etc?

The former. Here’s what some say is the definitive work, but others are chiming in to say that (at least anecdotally) UV sterilizers made a real difference for good.

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/My...-fNk17SlN-pbZmAGAz9wLlU456yMWYZjnmiqcS6nSoBCw

 

[Tanks!]

Interesting challenge. I couldn't open the Diana Walstad link, but is this the article: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/mycobacteriosis-the-stealth-disease213231 ?

That’s an excerpt. I’ve re-linked above in comments and in the OP to her full article.

In the article, she claims to have eradicated it with a UVS. Too bad that she was chased away a couple of years ago. Is your UVS a "Level One" UVS?

What’s a “Level One” UVS? I’m sold on them, and if I decide to continue, I plan to put a BOSS one plumbed in. Right now, it’s an inexpensive 13 w with pump that cleared all my green algae in 4 days and has given me crystal clear water, so it’s doing something right! :wink2:

 

[Discusluv]

So... “tumors” might have been the wrong term. They were places where, first scales were missing, some on the side of the body, and then on some, on their mouths. They looked, swam, ate, etc. fine. For months. But over time, these places on their bodies developed raw, red flesh... I think they would better have been termed “lesions.” I did not know whom to ask, so I didn’t ask anyone... probably stupid of me. This was AFTER I had treated for what was obviously a tank wide, fungal/bacterial infection brought on my poor husbandry in a very busy season of my life. I had an adult, emerald rainbowfish who made a full recovery from that tank-wide episode. The two Boesemani males who got the ulcerated flesh developed them afterwards. I suppose it could be that their immunities were lowered from the tank-wide episode, and I could further postulate that the fish I just euthanized was weakened by the ich battle and algae bloom that I just went through. I’m not sure. Best I can do, not being an expert in any way.

I love my UV sterilizer. It’s an in-tank one, not expensive, and is running a 13 w bulb rated for 150 gallons. Mine is a 120 tank.

Mycobacteria can persist in aquarium for 2 years. Longer, of course, if you reintroduce the same or another strain. There are more than 1 strain out there as Walstad's article makes clear. Ive had tanks running for 30 years and Ive seen a lot of bacterial infections- not one didn't respond to antibiotics in the aggregate. I lost fish, but not all my fish.



If you want a definitive answer, I know people who have got a fish tested ( a recent death or a sacrifice fish) through a University extension or a local vet. We have a fish science department at UC Davis who test hobbyist's fish for various diseases. There are vets that would do the same. Sounds like you are looking for answers and that will not be definitively found through social media.

 

[Greggz]

Thanks. I have long wondered about the story of Walsted being chased away... I don’t know any details.

IMO, the Walsted episode had blame to go around. Diana came on and made some statements that if not downright wrong, were clearly debatable. Then she started advertising her book in the thread (post since deleted), which I personally found distasteful.

I thought the thread started off pretty civil, but at some point got off the rails. I never did see the real fireworks, as by the time I checked back in the thread was locked and many posts were deleted.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think she was chased away. It seemed to me that she had little interest in hearing opposing theories. And let's face it, there are many theories in her book that are dated and have been challenged by many well known folks in the hobby. A healthy debate would have been interesting, but it was not to be. Again, just my perspective.

Here is the old thread....with many posts deleted.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/100-low-tech-forum/1297357-plants-dying-newly-setup-aquarium.html#post11253683

 

[Tanks!]

@Discusluv: I just found the medication I used on the fungal outbreak two year ago:

API’s PimaFix. It did save many of my tank fish; no one (including the filter) suffered any lasting harm, but the Boesemani males did begin to develop their ulcerations after this episode.

 

[Deanna]

What’s a “Level One” UVS? I’m sold on them, and if I decide to continue, I plan to put a BOSS one plumbed in. Right now, it’s an inexpensive 13 w with pump that cleared all my green algae in 4 days and has given me crystal clear water, so it’s doing something right! :wink2:

Your current UVS is one that the pathogens laugh at and are probably enjoying getting a good tan as they pass through.

It is important to get a high-end one, not the cheapies that will just clear-up green water. It’s the difference between a “clarifier” and a sterilizer. The ‘kill’ capability is a combination of microwatt seconds per square centimeter, temperature and flow. You want a sterilization capability with as high a dwell time as you can find. Specifications to focus upon are microwatt seconds per square centimeter (µW/cm2 in spec sheets) and dwell time (gph). Basically, a high µW/cm2 unit will allow higher flow rates for a given kill capability. As one article puts it: Lamp Value = UV Lamp Length + UV-C Output + Useful Lamp Life, but expect to pay ~$150 for these types of true sterilizers.

Here is an article (just the first I ran into on Google) that gives the detail:
https://www.octopusstudios.com/aquariums-tanks/equipment/best-uv-sterilizer-aquariums/

Low-pressure bulbs (more expensive) sterilize more than higher pressure bulbs. If a UVS is not designed to handle the temp of a low-pressure bulb, and you try to force-fit one into it, the UVS will fail (such as melting). In fact, I don’t need a heater because the UVS keeps my 29 gal tank at a steady 76 degrees. The UVS I have is a TMC Vecton V2 series.

 

[Deanna]

IMO, the Walsted episode had blame to go around. Diana came on and made some statements that if not downright wrong, were clearly debatable. Then she started advertising her book in the thread (post since deleted), which I personally found distasteful.

I thought the thread started off pretty civil, but at some point got off the rails. I never did see the real fireworks, as by the time I checked back in the thread was locked and many posts were deleted.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think she was chased away. It seemed to me that she had little interest in hearing opposing theories. And let's face it, there are many theories in her book that are dated and have been challenged by many well known folks in the hobby. A healthy debate would have been interesting, but it was not to be. Again, just my perspective.

Here is the old thread....with many posts deleted.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/100-low-tech-forum/1297357-plants-dying-newly-setup-aquarium.html#post11253683

I guess we have a different perspective on it. I interpreted her comments as referencing her book, but not as a sales pitch. I did disagree with some of her comments, but I do remember a number of posts that were well out-of-hand and surprisingly insulting. We could argue that, maybe, she had thin skin, but it did get beyond simply challenging her statements. There were a lot of deleted posts in that thread.

 

[Discusluv]

IMO, the Walsted episode had blame to go around. Diana came on and made some statements that if not downright wrong, were clearly debatable. Then she started advertising her book in the thread (post since deleted), which I personally found distasteful.

I thought the thread started off pretty civil, but at some point got off the rails. I never did see the real fireworks, as by the time I checked back in the thread was locked and many posts were deleted.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think she was chased away. It seemed to me that she had little interest in hearing opposing theories. And let's face it, there are many theories in her book that are dated and have been challenged by many well known folks in the hobby. A healthy debate would have been interesting, but it was not to be. Again, just my perspective.

Here is the old thread....with many posts deleted.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-dying-newly-setup-aquarium.html#post11253683

How do you know the full story if you came late when posts had been deleted and the thread locked?

Your opinion is noted, but if you only saw half the conversation how do you know that she wasnt concidering opposing theories?

Walstad's theories continue to be popular and generate a lot of interest up to the current day. Her book is very popular. She is a scientist that continues to engage in her field.

Do you have anything to say to commend her achievements at all?

Why was promoting her book distasteful? I dont find that distasteful in the least.

 

[Greggz]

I guess we have a different perspective on it. I interpreted her comments as referencing her book, but not as a sales pitch. I did disagree with some of her comments, but I do remember a number of posts that were well out-of-hand and surprisingly insulting. We could argue that, maybe, she had thin skin, but it did get beyond simply challenging her statements. There were a lot of deleted posts in that thread.

She did more than referenced her book, she made a pitch for it and provided a link to purchase it. The post was deleted.

But I agree with everything else you said. She was a bit thin skinned, and some want beyond challenging her statements.

And don't get me wrong, I respect her position in the hobby. But I also respect others who are equally as knowledgeable. I thought it was a great opportunity to pick her brain and have some good debate. Too bad was not to be.

But my main point is that I have heard this comment before that she was chased away. I did not find that to be the case. I was there. She was dishing it out pretty well as she was receiving it. Like I said, there was blame to go around.