Very interesting, thanks for posting.
Most Effective Method of Nitrate Reduction--Methanol Dosing
So I thought I'd share a bit of an experiment I did in my freshwater 75-gallon in regards to Nitrates that I hope other people will find helpful. I am going to try to share this in as many places as I can, as I think I'm the only one who's tried it, and it has been by far the most successful method in significantly reducing Nitrates. It's long, sorry, but I think it's really important. Basic point is that methanol is the best option if you are serious about reducing Nitrates in your freshwater aquarium long-term.
So I have a pretty heavily stocked goldfish aquarium that is also planted. I was doing ok with Nitrates for a while, since the fish were small, I was siphoning out the waste about every other day, and the tank wasn't as heavily planted as it is now (contrary to popular opinion, a planted aquarium can in certain instances INCREASE Nitrates, since rooted plants are very efficient at trapping sediment and waste, thus making it difficult to siphon and for the filters to capture it). However, the fish have grown quickly, and I had to keep them well-fed, because they kept picking at the plants. I eventually moved a couple of the big ones out into the stock tank with the pond fish, but Nitrates were still way too high (like 80 ppm+). Some of you may have seen my previous argument about whether plants, water changes, or anaerobic bacteria are more efficient/effective for reducing Nitrates, and I said the anaerobic bacteria is what is most important. Going off of that, I attempted to increase my anaerobic bacteria population, both by creating more appropriate media for them to grow on, and more importantly, adding Red Sea NO3/Po4 Remover (methanol). I was using this in my reef aquarium, and it worked really well, almost too well (I lowered the dose, even though my bioload is bigger now). The idea behind methanol dosing is it gives the bacteria a source of inorganic carbon, which is often a limiting nutrient for them. It is used in wastewater treatment, and is the most effective and safe compound to use. Everywhere I read on forums said they either didn't know if it could be used in freshwater or said not to do it (but as usual, couldn't back up their statements with legitimate research). I read; however, that most fish and plants are quite tolerant of it, and plants even usually perform better with reasonable doses. So I decided to try it (by this point, I had tried basically every product out there for reducing Nitrates...most are junk, btw, Algone and API Nitrazorb were somewhat effective, but you need to use a lot of it, and it's probably better for more moderate NO3 levels). Nitrates steadily declined, and this morning, they were at zero. Keep in mind, this is with a heavily stocked tank with goldfish, which probably produce more waste than any other aquarium fish. I did get quite a bacterial bloom, but that's the point. I've had to clean out the filter intake tubes pretty regularly just to keep them working.
If you are having a Nitrate problem, I can tell you this is by far the best way to reduce it. Aquariums are all about recreating natural processes as closely as possible. Most freshwater ecosystems have very effective Nitrate absorbtion through anaerobic bacteria found in the anoxic soils of wetlands. We need to try to recreate this as closely as possible. Water changes are NOT the best option, and can even be detrimental if you are doing large water changes frequently. It is impossible to get the parameters right each time, unless you are using pure RO or pure tap water, and if you dose CO2 (like me), you are going to have major CO2 and pH fluctuations. Plus, say you are doing 25% water changes. That means you are only reducing Nitrates by 25%, and the next day, they will most likely go back to the same levels they were before. Manually removing waste is a good idea though, but try to take out as little water as possible. If you want to use plants, you can do that, but they need to be fast-growing plants that feed from the water column (like hornwort), and you need to be using high light, high CO2, and regular dosing of Potassium and trace elements.
So I have a pretty heavily stocked goldfish aquarium that is also planted. I was doing ok with Nitrates for a while, since the fish were small, I was siphoning out the waste about every other day, and the tank wasn't as heavily planted as it is now (contrary to popular opinion, a planted aquarium can in certain instances INCREASE Nitrates, since rooted plants are very efficient at trapping sediment and waste, thus making it difficult to siphon and for the filters to capture it). However, the fish have grown quickly, and I had to keep them well-fed, because they kept picking at the plants. I eventually moved a couple of the big ones out into the stock tank with the pond fish, but Nitrates were still way too high (like 80 ppm+). Some of you may have seen my previous argument about whether plants, water changes, or anaerobic bacteria are more efficient/effective for reducing Nitrates, and I said the anaerobic bacteria is what is most important. Going off of that, I attempted to increase my anaerobic bacteria population, both by creating more appropriate media for them to grow on, and more importantly, adding Red Sea NO3/Po4 Remover (methanol). I was using this in my reef aquarium, and it worked really well, almost too well (I lowered the dose, even though my bioload is bigger now). The idea behind methanol dosing is it gives the bacteria a source of inorganic carbon, which is often a limiting nutrient for them. It is used in wastewater treatment, and is the most effective and safe compound to use. Everywhere I read on forums said they either didn't know if it could be used in freshwater or said not to do it (but as usual, couldn't back up their statements with legitimate research). I read; however, that most fish and plants are quite tolerant of it, and plants even usually perform better with reasonable doses. So I decided to try it (by this point, I had tried basically every product out there for reducing Nitrates...most are junk, btw, Algone and API Nitrazorb were somewhat effective, but you need to use a lot of it, and it's probably better for more moderate NO3 levels). Nitrates steadily declined, and this morning, they were at zero. Keep in mind, this is with a heavily stocked tank with goldfish, which probably produce more waste than any other aquarium fish. I did get quite a bacterial bloom, but that's the point. I've had to clean out the filter intake tubes pretty regularly just to keep them working.
If you are having a Nitrate problem, I can tell you this is by far the best way to reduce it. Aquariums are all about recreating natural processes as closely as possible. Most freshwater ecosystems have very effective Nitrate absorbtion through anaerobic bacteria found in the anoxic soils of wetlands. We need to try to recreate this as closely as possible. Water changes are NOT the best option, and can even be detrimental if you are doing large water changes frequently. It is impossible to get the parameters right each time, unless you are using pure RO or pure tap water, and if you dose CO2 (like me), you are going to have major CO2 and pH fluctuations. Plus, say you are doing 25% water changes. That means you are only reducing Nitrates by 25%, and the next day, they will most likely go back to the same levels they were before. Manually removing waste is a good idea though, but try to take out as little water as possible. If you want to use plants, you can do that, but they need to be fast-growing plants that feed from the water column (like hornwort), and you need to be using high light, high CO2, and regular dosing of Potassium and trace elements.
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I think the reason a lot of people don't do this is because while it may remove nitrates it adds a lot of unknown organics. Methanol which is "cheap" over the counter stuff is not very pure, and the methods used to produce it also produce a large amount of other organic byproducts. I am sure it works, and that it probably works really well. The issue is that people are scared of the potential for the other organics to harm their: see list of expensive fish/shrimp/whatever. By the way this reaction can also be done with acetic acid (vinegar) the same way it is done with methanol. But again the same problem exists, over the counter acetic acid (vinegar) is very unpure.
For methanol, just a quick google searched showed me that most methanol products at about 8-10 dollars per gallon where about 99.8% pure. That may seem really pure to most people but in chemistry that .2% is huge. Especially because oftentimes its only ppm levels of materials that can be considered dangerous.
For the most part this isn't an issue in municipal water treatment because chlorine gas or UV light is used as well. Both of these will react with most large organic molecules and break them down into less harmful ones.
For methanol, just a quick google searched showed me that most methanol products at about 8-10 dollars per gallon where about 99.8% pure. That may seem really pure to most people but in chemistry that .2% is huge. Especially because oftentimes its only ppm levels of materials that can be considered dangerous.
For the most part this isn't an issue in municipal water treatment because chlorine gas or UV light is used as well. Both of these will react with most large organic molecules and break them down into less harmful ones.
I thought it was effective in reef tanks because the organic carbon is being dosed in conjunction with using protein skimmers?
I do wonder if the bacteria cells absorb those nitrates when they bloom with the introduction of the carbon source, but that once those bacterial cells themselves die the nutrients such as the nitrogen/nitrates will then be returned back into the water. And that will happen unless you continue dosing ever-larger amounts of carbon to feed an ever-increasing population of bacteria? And perhaps dosing carbon thus doesn't ever actually export the nitrogen out of the system if that is what is happening?
This is just my speculation however, and it could be that if it really is anaerobic bacteria that are feeding on the carbon then the nitrates will just be converted to nitrogen gas and off-gassed into the atmosphere. But anaerobic bacteria I wouldn't think would be visible as a bacterial bloom or as cloudiness, as they'd have to be buried deep in the substrate where there is no oxygen.
Food for thought...
I do wonder if the bacteria cells absorb those nitrates when they bloom with the introduction of the carbon source, but that once those bacterial cells themselves die the nutrients such as the nitrogen/nitrates will then be returned back into the water. And that will happen unless you continue dosing ever-larger amounts of carbon to feed an ever-increasing population of bacteria? And perhaps dosing carbon thus doesn't ever actually export the nitrogen out of the system if that is what is happening?
This is just my speculation however, and it could be that if it really is anaerobic bacteria that are feeding on the carbon then the nitrates will just be converted to nitrogen gas and off-gassed into the atmosphere. But anaerobic bacteria I wouldn't think would be visible as a bacterial bloom or as cloudiness, as they'd have to be buried deep in the substrate where there is no oxygen.
Food for thought...
I'll give a more thourough reply and give you my sources later, but for now, first of all, did you both actually read the whole post? This wasn't some random OTC thing of methanol I got at Walmart, I was using a product by Red Sea that is highly rated and has been used by advanced reef keepers for a long time. I have used it in my reef aquarium for about a year with no issues (and I don't use a skimmer). So no, Mxx, what you are saying about nutrients rising again is just not true. This is a long-term solution, and I have had zero fluctuations in my reef aquarium. I keep SPS coral, and I hardly do any water changes (probably not a good thing I admit, but the point is this is effective). Not to be offensive, but you obviously do not completely understand the Nitrogen cycle. In anaerobic bacteria, Nitrates are reduced back into Nitrogen gas. It completely leaves the system (of the aquarium).
For some reason, people think freshwater and saltwater aquariums are completely different and there is no overlap. This is not true. Many, if not most, of the same principles apply to both. I am not saying this just as someone new in the hobby, I have had over 15 years of experience keeping both fresh and saltwater and have my background in water resources and ecology. I've worked in several water quality labs and have done work with the FWS and Greater Gallatin Watershed Council doing stream and wetland analysis and assessment. I am not saying this to be arrogant, but I do have somewhat of an idea of what I'm talking about, and again, there are peer-reviewed studies that will back me up on this.
If you want to disagree with me on this, you can, but you'll need to base it off of something other than just your opinion. And when I was talking about the bacteria bloom, this also "feeds" aerobic bacteria, not just anaerobic.
And Vohlk, I am not lying when I say this is used extensively in water treatment and waste management. Much of the research done has been related to this. One of the initial and most important processes in treatment of waste water is biological.
For some reason, people think freshwater and saltwater aquariums are completely different and there is no overlap. This is not true. Many, if not most, of the same principles apply to both. I am not saying this just as someone new in the hobby, I have had over 15 years of experience keeping both fresh and saltwater and have my background in water resources and ecology. I've worked in several water quality labs and have done work with the FWS and Greater Gallatin Watershed Council doing stream and wetland analysis and assessment. I am not saying this to be arrogant, but I do have somewhat of an idea of what I'm talking about, and again, there are peer-reviewed studies that will back me up on this.
If you want to disagree with me on this, you can, but you'll need to base it off of something other than just your opinion. And when I was talking about the bacteria bloom, this also "feeds" aerobic bacteria, not just anaerobic.
And Vohlk, I am not lying when I say this is used extensively in water treatment and waste management. Much of the research done has been related to this. One of the initial and most important processes in treatment of waste water is biological.
My intention was not to say you where lying about it being used in waste water treatment, quiet the opposite in fact. I am very familiar with the waste water treatment process and used to work for a company designing waste water treatment facilities. I understand what you are saying completely, I was simply supplying reasons as to why it does work in water treatment. Reasons why it is much safer to use in large scale waste water treatment. There is a lot of chemistry behind it, I do not know what your chemistry background is, I presume some based on your work history, chlorine (which is used very often in waste water management) or high intensity UV light, reacts to break down or "neutralize" lots of "heavy" organic matter. Large organic molecules that make it thruough all of the biological filtration and even the settling tanks are neutralized on the way out of the waste water facility.
The problem (concern whatever you want to call it) is that the chlorine treatment/UV light treatment doesn't exist in most (freshwater tanks (some UV light is used based on filter and whatnot (UV sterilizer))), I do not own saltwater tanks, and while they are similar there is very different chemistry going on in these, (ozone generators? are these still common practice? I do not know I tried my hand at saltwater many years ago but realized my passions lied elsewhere).
My previous post can basically be summed up as saying, over the counter products are relatively impure (unless it is costing somewhere around $400+ per gallon), the impurities in this could (or could not) be dangerous when dosed regularly. But there may be more than just methanol in these mixtures I do not know, maybe they themselves have already been exposed to UV light to break down those "large" organic molecules I do not know.
The problem (concern whatever you want to call it) is that the chlorine treatment/UV light treatment doesn't exist in most (freshwater tanks (some UV light is used based on filter and whatnot (UV sterilizer))), I do not own saltwater tanks, and while they are similar there is very different chemistry going on in these, (ozone generators? are these still common practice? I do not know I tried my hand at saltwater many years ago but realized my passions lied elsewhere).
My previous post can basically be summed up as saying, over the counter products are relatively impure (unless it is costing somewhere around $400+ per gallon), the impurities in this could (or could not) be dangerous when dosed regularly. But there may be more than just methanol in these mixtures I do not know, maybe they themselves have already been exposed to UV light to break down those "large" organic molecules I do not know.
So I thought I'd share a bit of an experiment I did in my freshwater 75-gallon in regards to Nitrates that I hope other people will find helpful. I am going to try to share this in as many places as I can, as I think I'm the only one who's tried it, and it has been by far the most successful method in significantly reducing Nitrates. It's long, sorry, but I think it's really important. Basic point is that methanol is the best option if you are serious about reducing Nitrates in your freshwater aquarium long-term. So I have a pretty heavily stocked goldfish aquarium that is also planted. I was doing ok with Nitrates for a while, since the fish were small, I was siphoning out the waste about every other day, and the tank wasn't as heavily planted as it is now (contrary to popular opinion, a planted aquarium can in certain instances INCREASE Nitrates, since rooted plants are very efficient at trapping sediment and waste, thus making it difficult to siphon and for the filters to capture it). However, the fish have grown quickly, and I had to keep them well-fed, because they kept picking at the plants. I eventually moved a couple of the big ones out into the stock tank with the pond fish, but Nitrates were still way too high (like 80 ppm+). Some of you may have seen my previous argument about whether plants, water changes, or anaerobic bacteria are more efficient/effective for reducing Nitrates, and I said the anaerobic bacteria is what is most important. Going off of that, I attempted to increase my anaerobic bacteria population, both by creating more appropriate media for them to grow on, and more importantly, adding Red Sea NO3/Po4 Remover (methanol). I was using this in my reef aquarium, and it worked really well, almost too well (I lowered the dose, even though my bioload is bigger now). The idea behind methanol dosing is it gives the bacteria a source of inorganic carbon, which is often a limiting nutrient for them. It is used in wastewater treatment, and is the most effective and safe compound to use. Everywhere I read on forums said they either didn't know if it could be used in freshwater or said not to do it (but as usual, couldn't back up their statements with legitimate research). I read; however, that most fish and plants are quite tolerant of it, and plants even usually perform better with reasonable doses. If you are having a Nitrate problem, I can tell you this is by far the best way to reduce it. Aquariums are all about recreating natural processes as closely as possible. Most freshwater ecosystems have very effective Nitrate absorbtion through anaerobic bacteria found in the anoxic soils of wetlands. We need to try to recreate this as closely as possible.
A very interesting post (and experiment), along with some interesting comments. I guess I should keep my response to my opening sentence - but 'what the hey' - for what it is worth (hopefully my comments will not be misconstrued or considered disrespectful by anyone):My intention was not to say you where lying about it being used in waste water treatment, quiet the opposite in fact. I am very familiar with the waste water treatment process and used to work for a company designing waste water treatment facilities. I understand what you are saying completely, I was simply supplying reasons as to why it does work in water treatment. Reasons why it is much safer to use in large scale waste water treatment. There is a lot of chemistry behind it, I do not know what your chemistry background is, I presume some based on your work history, chlorine (which is used very often in waste water management) or high intensity UV light, reacts to break down or "neutralize" lots of "heavy" organic matter. Large organic molecules that make it thruough all of the biological filtration and even the settling tanks are neutralized on the way out of the waste water facility.
Most advanced Wastewater Treatment facilities (and their associated treatment processes) are based on desired goals. Removing (that important trio of initials) "TKN", is usually the main goal... along with the other goal of meeting permit compliance. In most instances, conventional secondary treatment (e.g., activated sludge basin & secondary clarifiers - biological nitrification in the activated sludge basin and suspended solids via the secondary clarifiers) provide adequate BOD and Suspended Solids removal. A well designed secondary treatment process will remove about 85-95% of the Biological Oxygen Demand & Suspended Solids, and about 65% Chemical Oxygen Demand from the original influent stream. Even though "considered adequate", the treated effluent still contains organic/inorganic materials, nitrogen, and phosphorus (and because of the nitrogen still present there is additional oxygen demand as a result). This could cause a Wastewater Treatment Plant to "not" meet basic compliance standards/regulations, along with permit violations.
If a higher quality effluent is needed to meet/exceed regulations, additional treatment is needed beyond secondary treatment (e.g., nutrient removal/ denitrification, tertiary). This is where methanol comes into play. Denitrification processes, usually incorporating some type of anoxic zone (e.g., basins/filters/reactors that can also include a fixed packing), are usually supplemented with a carbon source (more than often a dilute methanol solution is used, although ethanol is often used in anoxic rock tanks). Denitrification processes can become real 'gnarly' (in a hurry) for an operator. It's a difficult process and there are a lot of factors that come into play: like ph, temperature, methanol feed, etc.). Usually a well designed (municipal) wastewater treatment plant uses tertiary treatment for removing SS, COD, phosphorus, metals... while chlorine and UV are usually used for disinfection (Fecal Coliform).
I've got a lot of respect for the OP thinking outside of the box (with your methanol experiment and giving it a try), but more importantly: sharing your observations and results.
Now slow down there, and if you don't want to discuss it or listen to the suggestions of other then don't post it in a forum, nor make presumptions of others knowledge.
Yes, read the entire post, and yes, do thoroughly understand the nitrogen cycle.
I've done carbon dosing in my reef tank a few years back as well, both with vinegar and carbon pellets, although discontinued it when I wasn't happy with the side-effects.
And I was trying it in my planted tank too then, although I wasn't seeing a change in nitrates. When I researched the use of carbon dosing in freshwater the indication I got from others was that it only works in conjunction with protein-skimming, and I didn't have a sufficiently deep sand-bed there to achieve denitrification either I realized, so I discontinued that as well.
So how long have you been doing that carbon-dosing in your FW tank, how much have you been dosing, what have been your nitrate levels as a result, and have you seen any other side effects apart from a bit of cloudiness?
Many people do suggest that the Redsea product is a waste of money however, and to just use white vinegar which is a few dollars a gallon, or vodka.
Yes, read the entire post, and yes, do thoroughly understand the nitrogen cycle.
I've done carbon dosing in my reef tank a few years back as well, both with vinegar and carbon pellets, although discontinued it when I wasn't happy with the side-effects.
And I was trying it in my planted tank too then, although I wasn't seeing a change in nitrates. When I researched the use of carbon dosing in freshwater the indication I got from others was that it only works in conjunction with protein-skimming, and I didn't have a sufficiently deep sand-bed there to achieve denitrification either I realized, so I discontinued that as well.
So how long have you been doing that carbon-dosing in your FW tank, how much have you been dosing, what have been your nitrate levels as a result, and have you seen any other side effects apart from a bit of cloudiness?
Many people do suggest that the Redsea product is a waste of money however, and to just use white vinegar which is a few dollars a gallon, or vodka.
So I thought I'd share a bit of an experiment I did in my freshwater 75-gallon in regards to Nitrates that I hope other people will find helpful. I am going to try to share this in as many places as I can, as I think I'm the only one who's tried it, and it has been by far the most successful method in significantly reducing Nitrates. It's long, sorry, but I think it's really important. Basic point is that methanol is the best option if you are serious about reducing Nitrates in your freshwater aquarium long-term.
So I have a pretty heavily stocked goldfish aquarium that is also planted. I was doing ok with Nitrates for a while, since the fish were small, I was siphoning out the waste about every other day, and the tank wasn't as heavily planted as it is now (contrary to popular opinion, a planted aquarium can in certain instances INCREASE Nitrates, since rooted plants are very efficient at trapping sediment and waste, thus making it difficult to siphon and for the filters to capture it). However, the fish have grown quickly, and I had to keep them well-fed, because they kept picking at the plants. I eventually moved a couple of the big ones out into the stock tank with the pond fish, but Nitrates were still way too high (like 80 ppm+). Some of you may have seen my previous argument about whether plants, water changes, or anaerobic bacteria are more efficient/effective for reducing Nitrates, and I said the anaerobic bacteria is what is most important. Going off of that, I attempted to increase my anaerobic bacteria population, both by creating more appropriate media for them to grow on, and more importantly, adding Red Sea NO3/Po4 Remover (methanol). I was using this in my reef aquarium, and it worked really well, almost too well (I lowered the dose, even though my bioload is bigger now). The idea behind methanol dosing is it gives the bacteria a source of inorganic carbon, which is often a limiting nutrient for them. It is used in wastewater treatment, and is the most effective and safe compound to use. Everywhere I read on forums said they either didn't know if it could be used in freshwater or said not to do it (but as usual, couldn't back up their statements with legitimate research). I read; however, that most fish and plants are quite tolerant of it, and plants even usually perform better with reasonable doses. So I decided to try it (by this point, I had tried basically every product out there for reducing Nitrates...most are junk, btw, Algone and API Nitrazorb were somewhat effective, but you need to use a lot of it, and it's probably better for more moderate NO3 levels). Nitrates steadily declined, and this morning, they were at zero. Keep in mind, this is with a heavily stocked tank with goldfish, which probably produce more waste than any other aquarium fish. I did get quite a bacterial bloom, but that's the point. I've had to clean out the filter intake tubes pretty regularly just to keep them working.
If you are having a Nitrate problem, I can tell you this is by far the best way to reduce it. Aquariums are all about recreating natural processes as closely as possible. Most freshwater ecosystems have very effective Nitrate absorbtion through anaerobic bacteria found in the anoxic soils of wetlands. We need to try to recreate this as closely as possible. Water changes are NOT the best option, and can even be detrimental if you are doing large water changes frequently. It is impossible to get the parameters right each time, unless you are using pure RO or pure tap water, and if you dose CO2 (like me), you are going to have major CO2 and pH fluctuations. Plus, say you are doing 25% water changes. That means you are only reducing Nitrates by 25%, and the next day, they will most likely go back to the same levels they were before. Manually removing waste is a good idea though, but try to take out as little water as possible. If you want to use plants, you can do that, but they need to be fast-growing plants that feed from the water column (like hornwort), and you need to be using high light, high CO2, and regular dosing of Potassium and trace elements.
Now slow down there, and if you don't want to discuss it or listen to the suggestions of other then don't post it in a forum, nor make presumptions of others knowledge.
Yes, read the entire post, and yes, do thoroughly understand the nitrogen cycle.
I've done carbon dosing in my reef tank a few years back as well, both with vinegar and carbon pellets, although discontinued it when I wasn't happy with the side-effects.
And I was trying it in my planted tank too then, although I wasn't seeing a change in nitrates. When I researched the use of carbon dosing in freshwater the indication I got from others was that it only works in conjunction with protein-skimming, and I didn't have a sufficiently deep sand-bed there to achieve denitrification either I realized, so I discontinued that as well.
So how long have you been doing that carbon-dosing in your FW tank, how much have you been dosing, what have been your nitrate levels as a result, and have you seen any other side effects apart from a bit of cloudiness?
Many people do suggest that the Redsea product is a waste of money however, and to just use white vinegar which is a few dollars a gallon, or vodka.
Good day , interesting test , I was thinking about trying this as well as I have high NO# levels in my planted tanks. I would also like some more info on your test , what was you NO3 level at start of test , what was the dosing schedule ( how many ML/Gallon X week ) how long did it take to get NO3 Level from ??ppm to where you are at now and how are you maintaining this NO3 Level , Did this affect your PO4 levels ????
Well here are a few of the sources I used, I can try to find more if people would like...
http://www.incda-fundulea.ro/rar/nr78/rar7_9.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15162848
Denitrification of nitrate and nitric acid with methanol as carbon source | SpringerLink
http://www.aidic.it/cet/13/32/054.pdf
http://www.incda-fundulea.ro/rar/nr78/rar7_9.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15162848
Denitrification of nitrate and nitric acid with methanol as carbon source | SpringerLink
http://www.aidic.it/cet/13/32/054.pdf
Good day , interesting test , I was thinking about trying this as well as I have high NO# levels in my planted tanks. I would also like some more info on your test , what was you NO3 level at start of test , what was the dosing schedule ( how many ML/Gallon X week ) how long did it take to get NO3 Level from ??ppm to where you are at now and how are you maintaining this NO3 Level , Did this affect your PO4 levels ????
Do you have this info , would love to see more details on it, Thanks for taking the time to post your results.
Just be be clear on myself if I wasn't from the beginning. I am not disagreeing with the chemistry of how methanol reacts to denitrify the water column. My concern would lie with the purity of the methanol and the other "free" organics that come with. It is just a concern, it does not mean that using methanol will not work (obviously it will) but it is also a potential risk. It's not the methanol I would worry about but potential other materials.
Its a bit of a luck of the draw with what exactly else is in there with the methanol, could be water, could be other materials. In the article you posted they where using analytical grade methanol. This is one of the most expensive methanol's you can buy. (about $84.80 for 2.5 liters from sigma aldrich, or that works out to about $128 a gallon(the really pure stuff is ridiculous(%12.70 a mL)) Most aquariast's I imagine would not be using that purity, and would likely be getting the much cheaper much less pure options.
It's probably not the fact that it doesn't work, but the fact that it has the potential to go wrong which would push people away from the idea. Probably the same reason why people probably wouldn't be comfortable pouring vinegar into their fish tanks. But alas, maybe times will change.
Its a bit of a luck of the draw with what exactly else is in there with the methanol, could be water, could be other materials. In the article you posted they where using analytical grade methanol. This is one of the most expensive methanol's you can buy. (about $84.80 for 2.5 liters from sigma aldrich, or that works out to about $128 a gallon(the really pure stuff is ridiculous(%12.70 a mL)) Most aquariast's I imagine would not be using that purity, and would likely be getting the much cheaper much less pure options.
It's probably not the fact that it doesn't work, but the fact that it has the potential to go wrong which would push people away from the idea. Probably the same reason why people probably wouldn't be comfortable pouring vinegar into their fish tanks. But alas, maybe times will change.
Just be be clear on myself if I wasn't from the beginning. I am not disagreeing with the chemistry of how methanol reacts to denitrify the water column. My concern would lie with the purity of the methanol and the other "free" organics that come with. It is just a concern, it does not mean that using methanol will not work (obviously it will) but it is also a potential risk. It's not the methanol I would worry about but potential other materials.
Its a bit of a luck of the draw with what exactly else is in there with the methanol, could be water, could be other materials. In the article you posted they where using analytical grade methanol. This is one of the most expensive methanol's you can buy. (about $84.80 for 2.5 liters from sigma aldrich, or that works out to about $128 a gallon(the really pure stuff is ridiculous(%12.70 a mL)) Most aquariast's I imagine would not be using that purity, and would likely be getting the much cheaper much less pure options.
It's probably not the fact that it doesn't work, but the fact that it has the potential to go wrong which would push people away from the idea. Probably the same reason why people probably wouldn't be comfortable pouring vinegar into their fish tanks. But alas, maybe times will change.
From post #1 , in this test he was using Red Sea NO3/Po4 Remover , I would take it that since this is made for fish tanks that it would be safe to use, I watch a video on this product and it is made up of different compounds to do a complete job.
I have been having problems with high NO3 in all three of my planted tanks ( 230G // 72G & a 36 G ) I have tried different product to get the NO3 down, none work, I just redid my filters set up in all my tanks using Biohome Ultimate trying to get my filter doing what the tread is talking about.
Its funny as I had already placed an order for Red Sea NO3/Po4 Remover before seeing and reading this post, I will report back once I start using it .
The science of what you guys are discussing is way over my head, as are a lot of things. I'm just curious as to the motivation to control nitrates with an additive. Is it to reduce or eliminate the need to perform water changes? Is it to support a bio-load the tank wouldn't otherwise be able to handle even with regular water changes at a reasonable interval? Possibly the water source has a high level of nitrates to start with so additional reduction measures are needed? Just wondering.
There is much evidence that even low-tech, non-co2, low light set ups can be very efficient at removing nitrates as long as there is a manageable bio-load. Even with small and infrequent water changes in some cases. When I perform a water change that reduces nitrates by 25% they do not return to the starting point in one day, as you suggest. I can keep my nitrates in a fairly predictable range doing water changes every 2 weeks. In other words it takes about 2 weeks for the nitrates to return to the original level after a water change. If I change less water or wait longer nitrates build, if I change more water or do it at shorter intervals the nitrate level drops accordingly, all else remaining the same.
There is much evidence that even low-tech, non-co2, low light set ups can be very efficient at removing nitrates as long as there is a manageable bio-load. Even with small and infrequent water changes in some cases. When I perform a water change that reduces nitrates by 25% they do not return to the starting point in one day, as you suggest. I can keep my nitrates in a fairly predictable range doing water changes every 2 weeks. In other words it takes about 2 weeks for the nitrates to return to the original level after a water change. If I change less water or wait longer nitrates build, if I change more water or do it at shorter intervals the nitrate level drops accordingly, all else remaining the same.
Can't you accomplish Nitrate reduction by doing regular water changes?
Maybe yes, maybe no..Can't you accomplish Nitrate reduction by doing regular water changes?
Some of my tanks don't "behave" well. I can do a 50% water change and days later Nitrates are just as high..
Mostly heavily planted (to the point of choking) and heavy bioload..
This methanol thing is another "tool" basically like sugar and vodka and vinegar....
Unfortunately all seem to go through the bacterial bloom stage..which would be annoying to me..
I do plan to try something like this on a 40b though..
My biggest concern is how much of an "anaerobic zone" one has w/ shallow course substrate.
Seems sand or dirted would be preferred..
Vinegar is out due to low kH..
Personally I really like the science-based threads. And I'll look forward to reading through those links provided when I'm not on a deadline.
The OP had explained that you can reduce nitrates through water changes, but unless you're doing a 100% water change then there are still nitrates there. And for some of us, like myself, our tapwater has more nitrates than I would prefer for my tank to have... So what he is talking about there is presumably a way to fully eliminate nitrates and therefore keep the parameters healthier for your fish. So it's not a thread about water changes or not, and there are certain reasons to be doing water changes, but to keep nitrates down shouldn't have to be one of them. It should be a very simply and effective method for denitrification in FW tanks if it works as described.
Are we hobbyists really worried that products intended for human consumption such as pure white vinegar or vodka aren't pure enough to put into our tanks?... (For full disclosure, I won't put that crap that comes out of my water faucets and which my family drinks into my aquariums, at least not before it has been 100% purified by my RODI filter.)
The OP had explained that you can reduce nitrates through water changes, but unless you're doing a 100% water change then there are still nitrates there. And for some of us, like myself, our tapwater has more nitrates than I would prefer for my tank to have... So what he is talking about there is presumably a way to fully eliminate nitrates and therefore keep the parameters healthier for your fish. So it's not a thread about water changes or not, and there are certain reasons to be doing water changes, but to keep nitrates down shouldn't have to be one of them. It should be a very simply and effective method for denitrification in FW tanks if it works as described.
Are we hobbyists really worried that products intended for human consumption such as pure white vinegar or vodka aren't pure enough to put into our tanks?... (For full disclosure, I won't put that crap that comes out of my water faucets and which my family drinks into my aquariums, at least not before it has been 100% purified by my RODI filter.)
Hundred's of PPM Nitrates needed long term to have much of a negative affect on fauna.
Without calibrating hobbyist test kit's against known solution,one could easily have way more or way less nitrates than they think.
I'll see the OP's 75 gal heavily stocked goldfish tank and "Kick a buck ' raise him/her a 55 gal heavily stocked Pleco tank that 50 % weekly water change keeps fishes/plant's happy and nitrate level's around 60 ppm.
Tank is lousy with anubia,anacharis,duck weed,and one crypt.
Four Adult pleco's,gob's of cherry shrimp,a few dozen baby bristlenose,fancy guppies.all thrive and re-produce at all too regular intervals.(nitrates between 60 -80 ppm)
I might consider the methanol if source water was indeed unfit for drinking due to nitrate levels.
Telling folk's that large frequent water changes are not the answer and or could be harmful to ?? need's some proper context.
Nobody I know changes more water more often than I do ,and have yet to see any harmful effect's over some forty year's with nearly as many freshwater species.
Lot's of problem's arise with over stocked tanks which usually also result's in over feeding which is self induced problem.No need for chemical's to fix it.
Not to mention that both Nitrogen and PO4 are needed macro nutrient's by plant's.
I add both weekly to low tech NON CO2 and those running high tech ,dose them nearly every day .
If it is the anaerobic bacterium one wishes to cultivate for nitrogen reducing to methane gas,then simply make substrate deeper where less O2 will encourage them.
Without calibrating hobbyist test kit's against known solution,one could easily have way more or way less nitrates than they think.
I'll see the OP's 75 gal heavily stocked goldfish tank and "Kick a buck ' raise him/her a 55 gal heavily stocked Pleco tank that 50 % weekly water change keeps fishes/plant's happy and nitrate level's around 60 ppm.
Tank is lousy with anubia,anacharis,duck weed,and one crypt.
Four Adult pleco's,gob's of cherry shrimp,a few dozen baby bristlenose,fancy guppies.all thrive and re-produce at all too regular intervals.(nitrates between 60 -80 ppm)
I might consider the methanol if source water was indeed unfit for drinking due to nitrate levels.
Telling folk's that large frequent water changes are not the answer and or could be harmful to ?? need's some proper context.
Nobody I know changes more water more often than I do ,and have yet to see any harmful effect's over some forty year's with nearly as many freshwater species.
Lot's of problem's arise with over stocked tanks which usually also result's in over feeding which is self induced problem.No need for chemical's to fix it.
Not to mention that both Nitrogen and PO4 are needed macro nutrient's by plant's.
I add both weekly to low tech NON CO2 and those running high tech ,dose them nearly every day .
If it is the anaerobic bacterium one wishes to cultivate for nitrogen reducing to methane gas,then simply make substrate deeper where less O2 will encourage them.
In reference to my previous post I was certainly not trying to start a dialog on the pros and cons of water changes. I was simply asking about the reason(s) for using this method to reduce nitrates. Anyone trying to support plant growth in an aquarium probably isn't interested in fully eliminating nitrates, to the contrary some are adding nitrates to ensure the plants have an adequate source of this nutrient.Personally I really like the science-based threads. And I'll look forward to reading through those links provided when I'm not on a deadline.
The OP had explained that you can reduce nitrates through water changes, but unless you're doing a 100% water change then there are still nitrates there. And for some of us, like myself, our tapwater has more nitrates than I would prefer for my tank to have... So what he is talking about there is presumably a way to fully eliminate nitrates and therefore keep the parameters healthier for your fish. So it's not a thread about water changes or not, and there are certain reasons to be doing water changes, but to keep nitrates down shouldn't have to be one of them. It should be a very simply and effective method for denitrification in FW tanks if it works as described.
Are we hobbyists really worried that products intended for human consumption such as pure white vinegar or vodka aren't pure enough to put into our tanks?... (For full disclosure, I won't put that crap that comes out of my water faucets and which my family drinks into my aquariums, at least not before it has been 100% purified by my RODI filter.)
I mentioned a couple of possible scenarios that might be the reason for going about reducing nitrates as the OP is describing, one of them was an unacceptable level of nitrates in the source water, as in your situation.
The OP acknowledges the merit of manually removing wastes via water change but then goes on to state that in order for plants to be effective nitrate removers they must be fast growing, using high light and high co2. The rate of nitrate consumption will no doubt be increased in a high tech setup like this, sometimes to the point that additional nitrates need to be added.
I'd say there are probably some low tech tank keepers out there that would argue they are able to manage nitrates well in a planted tank with a reasonable bio-load by performing occasional water changes. There are some that manage this with no or very infrequent water changes.
Again, it was my curiosity as to why this method of nitrate removal was desired that prompted my original post. I'm all for people using whatever method the want, find most effective, easiest etc. to accomplish what they need to.
For as long as I have been a hobby aquarist I find it amazing how much there is yet to learn. Seems I learn something almost every time I visit this site.
That was one aspect of the carbon dosing that I don't understand actually. Is carbon dosing intended to assist denitrification happening in anaerobic conditions, by adding that nutrient so there is a non-limiting condition for it? IE; are areas of anaerobic filtration such as a deep sand bed necessary for carbon dosing to work, and the carbon dosing thus improves the rate of nitrate consumption of that process? I don't quite recall what the formulas for the chemical process were, although I should be able to look that up if I need to.If it is the anaerobic bacterium one wishes to cultivate for nitrogen reducing to methane gas,then simply make substrate deeper where less O2 will encourage them.
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