The Planted Tank Forum banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I currently have a handful of medium grade orange "pumpkin" neo's and was thinking of grabbing some higher grade orange sakuras. Would the interbreeding of the two cause any issues? or would the offspring stay an orange color? same scenario if I grabbed some orange rhili's?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
I currently have a handful of medium grade orange "pumpkin" neo's and was thinking of grabbing some higher grade orange sakuras. Would the interbreeding of the two cause any issues? or would the offspring stay an orange color? same scenario if I grabbed some orange rhili's?


Dont see a problem with doing that, you probably will get a mixed shade of oranges


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I was reading that over time the rili's and normal ones would continue down grading until their wild colors, with some retaining orange colors. So that's not what I will do.

As for sakura's and normal ones I was reading they will make a mix in between normal quality and sakura quality.

If all else fails I could sell off all the lower grade oranges and just opt for the higher grade sakuras.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
I was reading that over time the rili's and normal ones would continue down grading until their wild colors, with some retaining orange colors. So that's not what I will do.



As for sakura's and normal ones I was reading they will make a mix in between normal quality and sakura quality.



If all else fails I could sell off all the lower grade oranges and just opt for the higher grade sakuras.


You could always feed them some colour enhancing food , dont know how much it would help but i do that with my cherry shrimp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
when I mixed standard grade cherry shrimp with fire reds i've got better looking cherry, like sakura grade,. so maybe when You will mix regular orange with higher grade You'lll get better coloration
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,168 Posts
It is my understanding that if you mix neocaridina breeds, the offspring will roughly revert to the closest common ancestor.



For example, looking at the above chart, if you mixed fire red with sakura champ, you could expect a shrimp that might look something like sakura red, because sakura red is the closest common ancestor between those two breeds.

I see three different lines of orange in the above tree. If you mixed "orange neon" with "orange sakura", you might get something like what you originally hypothesize: something in between the two. But if you mixed "orange" with "orange sakura", the common ancestor between the two "red cherry", not an orange shrimp. This means there is at least the potential that these two different orange breeds could produce non-orange offspring. Then again, if all three lines of orange shrimp came to be orange via the same genetic mechanism, perhaps they could interbreed and produce orange offspring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
It is my understanding that if you mix neocaridina breeds, the offspring will roughly revert to the closest common ancestor.



For example, looking at the above chart, if you mixed fire red with sakura champ, you could expect a shrimp that might look something like sakura red, because sakura red is the closest common ancestor between those two breeds.

I see three different lines of orange in the above tree. If you mixed "orange neon" with "orange sakura", you might get something like what you originally hypothesize: something in between the two. But if you mixed "orange" with "orange sakura", the common ancestor between the two "red cherry", not an orange shrimp. This means there is at least the potential that these two different orange breeds could produce non-orange offspring. Then again, if all three lines of orange shrimp came to be orange via the same genetic mechanism, perhaps they could interbreed and produce orange offspring.
Wow that's exactly the chart I was looking for thanks. I think I'll just stick with my standard grade orange's and pick up some more to add some "new" genes into the mix. Probably selectively sell them off and increase the quality I keep. Thanks everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,366 Posts
They are mutations, not breeds. Some Neos are even a separate species.


Also, that chart isn't accurate. I'm not clear on what part isn't accurate though... still waiting on the shrimp expert Chris Lukhaup to explain...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
They are mutations, not breeds. Some Neos are even a separate species.


Also, that chart isn't accurate. I'm not clear on what part isn't accurate though... still waiting on the shrimp expert Chris Lukhaup to explain...
Well regardless I think I'll stick with standard grade orange's, same product from the same breeder just to avoid potential issues, and if i want to increase quality I can selectively sell off lower grading shrimps. It seems that mixing any shrimps will pose an issue with colors and qualities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,366 Posts
Can you explain the distinction?
A mutation would be like the difference between a black labrador vs a yellow labrador... or a normal orange bengal tiger vs a white bengal tiger. You can breed two different mutations together from the same species (or, in the case of dogs, breeds) and you will always get the same animal in the offspring. Depending on the genetics will depend on how the offspring turn out. In tigers, the white mutation is recessive, so if you were to breed a white bengal to a normal wild type/orange bengal, all the offspring will be orange split white. However, if you breed a white bengal to an orange split white bengal, you'll get a combination of orange and white offspring. White bengal x white bengal you get white offspring. Orange split white x orange split white would also result in orange and white offspring.


A breed would be more akin to the difference between any dog breed (labrador, pug, greyhound, great dane, etc) as compared to a grey wolf. Dogs have been domesticated enough, with enough variants that we can no longer call them a wolf. It's not just dogs, as you have cats, pigs, cattle, etc. Basically, any domestic breed of animal that could no longer be considered anything similar to their wild counterpart. If you were to breed two different breeds together, you would get an animal that is somewhere in between the parent breeds. That is, the animal will have characteristics from both parents. A labrador x great dane will create a dog that is smaller and more slender than a great dane, but larger and bigger boned than a lab. Legs may be lengthier as well when compared to a lab. A lot of corgi mixes on the other hand may end up with the short legs of the corgi, but if bred to a larger dog breed, will have characteristics of the larger breed in head shape and overall color. They may be larger and taller than a typical corgi, but will be terribly short as compared to the larger breed.



It might be possible to say that Neocaridina davidi that we have in captivity are now a breed, but all the different colors would be considered mutations. If you mix colors, there's no guarantee that the resulting offspring will be a combination of both parents. Most often, the offspring will be one color of one parent, or they'll be wild type. If you breed two similar colors together, then it might be possible to get offspring that are similar to the parents. Breeding bloody mary to any cherry color for example will just result in red offspring. Breeding Blue Dream with Blue Diamond will result in more blue offspring that may have black markings. Breeding Yellows with Greens and you could have a mix of yellow and green offspring. (some yellow colonies can throw green offspring) However, breeding cherry with yellow and you could get wild type. Or maybe it's green jayde to blue dream and the offspring are wild type. Without knowing the genetics or doing test breedings, we don't know if the mutations are dominant, co-dominant, recessive, sex-linked or?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
A mutation would be like the difference between a black labrador vs a yellow labrador... or a normal orange bengal tiger vs a white bengal tiger. You can breed two different mutations together from the same species (or, in the case of dogs, breeds) and you will always get the same animal in the offspring. Depending on the genetics will depend on how the offspring turn out. In tigers, the white mutation is recessive, so if you were to breed a white bengal to a normal wild type/orange bengal, all the offspring will be orange split white. However, if you breed a white bengal to an orange split white bengal, you'll get a combination of orange and white offspring. White bengal x white bengal you get white offspring. Orange split white x orange split white would also result in orange and white offspring.


A breed would be more akin to the difference between any dog breed (labrador, pug, greyhound, great dane, etc) as compared to a grey wolf. Dogs have been domesticated enough, with enough variants that we can no longer call them a wolf. It's not just dogs, as you have cats, pigs, cattle, etc. Basically, any domestic breed of animal that could no longer be considered anything similar to their wild counterpart. If you were to breed two different breeds together, you would get an animal that is somewhere in between the parent breeds. That is, the animal will have characteristics from both parents. A labrador x great dane will create a dog that is smaller and more slender than a great dane, but larger and bigger boned than a lab. Legs may be lengthier as well when compared to a lab. A lot of corgi mixes on the other hand may end up with the short legs of the corgi, but if bred to a larger dog breed, will have characteristics of the larger breed in head shape and overall color. They may be larger and taller than a typical corgi, but will be terribly short as compared to the larger breed.



It might be possible to say that Neocaridina davidi that we have in captivity are now a breed, but all the different colors would be considered mutations. If you mix colors, there's no guarantee that the resulting offspring will be a combination of both parents. Most often, the offspring will be one color of one parent, or they'll be wild type. If you breed two similar colors together, then it might be possible to get offspring that are similar to the parents. Breeding bloody mary to any cherry color for example will just result in red offspring. Breeding Blue Dream with Blue Diamond will result in more blue offspring that may have black markings. Breeding Yellows with Greens and you could have a mix of yellow and green offspring. (some yellow colonies can throw green offspring) However, breeding cherry with yellow and you could get wild type. Or maybe it's green jayde to blue dream and the offspring are wild type. Without knowing the genetics or doing test breedings, we don't know if the mutations are dominant, co-dominant, recessive, sex-linked or?

A breed:
a stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearance and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

A mutation:
the changing of the structure of a gene, resulting in a variant form that may be transmitted to subsequent generations, caused by the alteration of single base units in DNA, or the deletion, insertion, or rearrangement of larger sections of genes or chromosomes

Its unlikely the shrimps DNA was changed in favor of a color, they were selectively bred to display the colors the breeder was after, creating a blood line that eventually ties, let say, an orange neocaridina with a red cherry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,168 Posts
I'm not sure I understand. Black labs and yellow labs are indeed different breeds of dog. If they were plants, we'd use the word "cultivar". I can't find anything online to suggest that "breed" is anything other than an animal that has been bred by humans to have certain characteristics, to the extent that those characteristics are fixed and offspring resemble parents. Of course breeds are made by encouraging mutations. But no one ever says "that's a nice mutation of lab you have there - what is that, brown mutation?".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
271 Posts
A breed:
a stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearance and typically having been developed by deliberate selection.

A mutation:
the changing of the structure of a gene, resulting in a variant form that may be transmitted to subsequent generations, caused by the alteration of single base units in DNA, or the deletion, insertion, or rearrangement of larger sections of genes or chromosomes

Its unlikely the shrimps DNA was changed in favor of a color, they were selectively bred to display the colors the breeder was after, creating a blood line that eventually ties, let say, an orange neocaridina with a red cherry.
Without getting into the discussion of breed vs. mutation, I just wanted to nitpick your last statement. Shrimp DNA is absolutely changed in favor of a color, that's sort of the primary mechanism by which all living things preserve and pass on traits. There's nothing sacred about a species' DNA, every individual carries code that is slightly different from literally every other member of that species, explaining diversity within a species and things like brown labs, red hair, and blue shrimp.

Lets say a breeder sees a cherry with some green flecks on the back. Dang! Let's assume no shrimp has ever had that before. This is a new mutation that arose in this shrimp's DNA. The breeder then crosses this shrimp with another cherry and some of the shrimplets also have green flecks on their backs. Double dang! That's the process of selective breeding. The shrimplets now carry DNA responsible for the expression of green flecks on their back --inherited from a parent shrimp-- and may pass it on to some of their progeny as well. Their DNA undoubtedly contains new information (relative to previous generations) about their coloration.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top