[Vinster8108]

So I'm a little stumped on how to correct what I think is a nutrient deficiency in my ludwigia glandulosa palustris.
Tank parameters are:
40 gal breeder, fluval plant 2.0 & finnex planted+ 24/7, Pressurized CO2 with modified griggs reactor
GH 8, KH 4, pH 6-6.6, 50% water changes weekly
Dosing: 6ppm NO3, 4ppm PO4, 20ppm K, 0.4ppm Fe and Flourish comp weekly.
I am also dosing 1 table spoon of Seachem Equilibrium for Ca & Mg.

newer leaves are curling... = Ca?

Bump: @Seattle_Aquarist Let me know your thoughts when you get a chance, your advice is always helpful!

 

[Quagulator]

What is you pH drop from CO2?
With that much light you will need to be certain it is at least 1.0.

NO3 should be upwards of 20ppm weekly.
K 20ppm weekly.
PO4 5-6ppm weekly.
Flourish comp should be dosed daily.

I'm not certain on the exact deficiency, but focus on the fundamentals first, and see where they take you.

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Vinster8108,

When you get an opportunity could you please provide a 'side shot' of those plants for me, the top-down photo is helpful a shot from the side would help.

-Roy

 

[Tinanti]

What do you mean by "glandulosa palustris"? Unless it's a hybrid of the two (which does exist), it's one or the other. In your case, glandulosa.

 

[Vinster8108]

@Seattle_Aquarist I've made a shared google drive of photos from this grow-out tank. https://photos.app.goo.gl/n5E8aCZSma5URZaV6
Ignore how horrible the AR mini looks, it came from a different tank. It's doing better now.
@Quagulator Lights are at 70% intensity. pH drop is about one, sits at about 6.0 and my degassed tap is like 7.2/7.4.
I'm trying to move towards a lean NO3 dosing, following Dennis Wongs methods.
I dose 5mL of Comp the day after my first macro dose, it should be plenty. Daily f-comp dosing seems to be quite a lot.
@Tinanti It was sold to me by a local hobbyist as "glandulosa palustris", so it's likely just glandulosa.

 

[Quagulator]

@Quagulator Lights are at 70% intensity. pH drop is about one, sits at about 6.0 and my degassed tap is like 7.2/7.4.
I'm trying to move towards a lean NO3 dosing, following Dennis Wongs methods.
I dose 5mL of Comp the day after my first macro dose, it should be plenty. Daily f-comp dosing seems to be quite a lot.

Split the dose of Comp into 7 and dose daily, then is ins't a lot . The iron used is ferrous gluconate and will breakdown fast in the water, so you'll have none available later in the week, hence dose a little every day.

I don't have a problem with lean dosing, but perhaps go with the fundamentals first until everything is growing very well before playing with alternative / less popular methods??

I would still test degassed TANK water vs full CO2 saturated TANK water.

 

[OVT]

@Tinanti, doesn't grandulosa have much more rounded leaves?

 

[Maryland Guppy]

This plant is being marketed as ludwigia peruensis.
Another marketed variety is "diamond"
Either or they are glandulosa.

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

@Seattle_Aquarist I've made a shared google drive of photos from this grow-out tank. https://photos.app.goo.gl/n5E8aCZSma5URZaV6
Ignore how horrible the AR mini looks, it came from a different tank. It's doing better now.

Hi @Vinster8108,

Do you happen to know the current nitrate level in your tank (ppm of NO3)?

Thank you for all of your pictures! I see there appeared to be a calcium issue in August that seems to have been resolved. It is actually one of the pictures you took today may give us a hint as to what is happening.

At first I thought it might be a boron deficiency based upon the semi 'witches broom' look of the new growth and I haven't fully discounted boron as an issue however none of the other symptoms of insufficient boron seem to be present.

Looking at one of the pictures from today this is what I saw.

What I see is the leaf margins are starting to curl downward (sometimes upward) as the leaves mature. This would suggest insufficient magnesium is available to the plant either due to lack of magnesium availability or excessive potassium or calcium. I suggest starting with adding additional magnesium. Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O) is available at the local drug store. Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives. Start with a dose of 2 teaspoons, thereafter dose 1 teaspoon twice (2X) a week. Be sure to keep up with your water changes. If the issue is a lack of magnesium we should see improvement in the new leaves in 2-3 weeks; do not expect to see improvement in existing leaves...watch the new leaves as they emerge for improvement.

 

[Tinanti]

@Tinanti, doesn't grandulosa have much more rounded leaves?

It can have leaves that are a bit more rounded based on collection site, conditions and how long it's been submersed. It can be a bit variable. We even had one that grew a peach color submerged. Don't know what happened to that.

Note that it's glandulosa, not "grandulosa", though it's sometimes seen with the incorrect spelling by some sellers. Also, this is the same plant sold as "peruensis". There is no such name ever published in Ludwigia, so that one is just BS.

 

[Vinster8108]

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist, I will test tank parameters today and pick up some epsom salt!

I actually tested some of my tank water using ICP-OES on 9/20/18, the data I got shows: Ca 23 ppm, Mg 5 ppm, Fe 0.11 ppm, so Mg is lower.
This doesn't agree with the AP general hardness test (assuming GH = Ca +Mg), as 8 deg GH ~143.2 ppm not=28 ppm...hmmm...

I'm really surprised how much nutrients are needed, which has me thinking about availability and nutrient competition. Here in Ohio, excess lime softening is used to treat our drinking water, so my tap water has pretty constant levels of Ca (~15 ppm) and Mg (~3 ppm). Tap water is not representative of natural systems, but I would like to know more about natural/environmentally relevant levels.

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Vinster8108,

I cannot speak to the API GH Test Kit and what it is reading however if it is reading dGH properly then it is measuring all of the dissolved divalent metals (calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese) in the water. I would certainly try increasing the Mg first and see how things progress.

Update, I just got off the phone with API and they advised that their GH Test Kit only measures the calcium and magnesium in the water, none of the other divalent metals.

 

[Vinster8108]

@Seattle_Aquarist Dosed some of the Epsom salt yesterday. Any idea on a target Mg ppm?

Tank Params (ppm):
10/04/18
GH 161
KH 53
pH 6.6
NO3 20
PO4 2

After 90% WC
GH 90
KH 53
pH 7.6
NO3 0
PO4 0.5

3 hours after Dosing Equilibrium, Epsom, Macros
GH 125
KH 53
pH 7.2
NO3 5
PO4 1

@Quagulator
Tap pH is 7.6, degassed still 7.6.
Tank is ~6.4 at CO2 max, degassed tank pH 7.2


FYI, measure out on the analytical balance in my research lab (sorry idk how to do tables here):
mg / Scoop: KNO3, KH2PO4, MgSO4.7H2O
Drop: 45, 80, 55
Smidgen: 130, 200, 146
Pinch: 400, 440, 360
Dash: 600, 720, 594
Tad: 1200, 1260, 1175

 

[Quagulator]

@


[MENTION=229041]Quagulator
Tap pH is 7.6, degassed still 7.6.
Tank is ~6.4 at CO2 max, degassed tank pH 7.2

I would definitely try and get that pH to drop another 0.2 - 0.3. I was running my tank at 0.8 drop and went to a 1.0, made a huge difference.

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Vinster8108,

Dosed some of the Epsom salt yesterday. Any idea on a target Mg ppm?

Typically I target about 5.0 ppm of Mg but I also look and the plants for signs that Mg is lacking.

 

[Vinster8108]

2 weeks, some signs of improvement. https://photos.app.goo.gl/n5E8aCZSma5URZaV6 @Seattle_Aquarist

I'm noticing more red as well!

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Vinster8108,

Thank you for the update! Regrettably many times folks who ask for assistance don't follow up and let us know how our suggestions worked however it is the feedback such as you are providing that allows all of us to learn.

Yes I agree, I see a definite improvement and it has only been 10 days; all the leaves look healthier. I don't think the additional 'red' is a result of the additional magnesium, more likely just the stems and leaves getting closer to the light source. The leaves certainly have 'straightened out' and show less 'curling'. Watching how these new leaves mature and if they avoid the 'curling' is the next step. If the problem is resolved at this dosing level great; if the symptoms are improved but not totally resolved then look at a little more magnesium.

It does look like you are on the right path!

 

[Vinster8108]

@Seattle_Aquarist I'll admit to doing that before as well, i'm sure it's much more rewarding to see your advice turn practice and then result. Appreciate the help again now!
Just updated with a photo from today. Losing some red coloration, yet I dosed micros/Fe today... thoughts, maybe I will see a rebound tomorrow?

Bump: @Seattle_Aquarist I'll admit to doing that before as well, i'm sure it's much more rewarding to see your advice turn practice and then result. Appreciate the help again now!
Just updated with a photo from today. Losing some red coloration, yet I dosed micros/Fe today... thoughts, maybe I will see a rebound tomorrow?

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

@Seattle_Aquarist I'll admit to doing that before as well, i'm sure it's much more rewarding to see your advice turn practice and then result. Appreciate the help again now!
Just updated with a photo from today. Losing some red coloration, yet I dosed micros/Fe today... thoughts, maybe I will see a rebound tomorrow?

Hi @Vinster8108,

I don't believe that red coloration is necessarily linked to iron availability or uptake. When Tom Barr did his talk here in Seattle he indicated that increased coloration is typically a sign of plant 'stress'; usually brought on by increased light intensity or lack of a needed nutrient.

 

[natemcnutty]

Hi @Vinster8108,

I don't believe that red coloration is necessarily linked to iron availability or uptake. When Tom Barr did his talk here in Seattle he indicated that increased coloration is typically a sign of plant 'stress'; usually brought on by increased light intensity or lack of a needed nutrient.

That is my understanding as well. Iron only makes red plants look more red if they were experiencing an iron deficiency. Light intensity and nitrogen starvation are the biggest contributors for most red plants in bringing out more defined color, but nitrogen starvation has been a real battle for me to get right without trashing other plants... I gave up and added more light