[[email protected]]

Hi there
I’ve had my tank set up with fluval stratum, drift wood and plants for 6 months now. I was using tap water and had my ph at 6.3 Kh 0.5 gh 5. I’ve recently switched to ro water using gh only to reconstitute to the same tds I have in my tank. I also bought a more expensive pen to monitor parameters. (All calibrated) now I have a range of ph results to choose from
Old pen 6
New pen 5.8
API test 6 ish... definitely a bit of green in there, if I add acid is goes much more yellow.
I have about 60 shrimp in there. The CRS seem to be breeding fine , but the numbers of my RCS seem to be dropping.
I’m assuming my ph is to low for the RCS to thrive. And in what I’ve read the CRS can only tolerate a pH down to 6.2
I’m now concerned that having no kH in there is allowing bigger ph swings. I was considering using some kH in my reconstituted water to try and have more buffering. Or should I remove my driftwood?
Confused about whether to just leave it be or to change something.
Louise 😐

 

[Blue Ridge Reef]

This subject has come up daily lately! Long and sort of it is, it's fine. Neocaridina shrimp (cherries and their color variants) are FAR more adaptable than bees; and if you're going to keep both, best to cater to the more sensitive shrimp. pH swings from 0 dKH certainly are nothing to worry about with buffering soil keeping things steadily acidic. I breed Neos in Caridina tanks currently. I can't say scientifically that they have the same survival rate of offspring and such, but they seem to be normal, thriving colonies. When I tried keeping bees in Neocaridina conditions, that didn't work out so well.

 

[bsantucci]

Sorry I have to disagree with the above. The cherries need kh to properly molt. You should keep. Crystals and cherries separate. Get the cherries back in your tapwater and keep doing what you're doing with the crystals.

Edit.

I'd actually get salty shrimp gh/kh and use that for your rodi for the cherries. Your kh from trh tap is too low too

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[Blue Ridge Reef]

Hmm. 3 tanks going currently:
Goldenback yellow Neos with pintos (0 dKH):

Blue dreams with tigers (0dKH):

Orange Neos with CRS (0dKH)

 

[bsantucci]

You got like 6 neos in each tank visible. The other caridinas are in much higher numbers. This clearly indicates what I said is true. I'm not even trying to argue here. It's basic husbandry of the shrimp. Neos require kh. Sorry but it's a fact. Sure they can 'last' without it, but you'll never having a thriving colony in caridina parameters.

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[Blue Ridge Reef]

OK dude.

 

[bsantucci]

Lol. Why so mad. You're giving out bad advice.

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[Roboto]

I must have gotten really lucky with these guys in 0kh.

RO water using only seachem equilibrium to bring gh up to 8.

 

[bsantucci]

Your previous posts said you got the shrimp berried. Those are young shrimp in a new tank. I'm positive they will not thrive unless you add kh to your water.

Again, not fighting with anyone. Trying to give good advice so people can have success.

But do you, if you want to have a colony of 20 shrimp that slowly dwindles you can risk it. Or you can raise kh to 5 or 6 and have hundreds of shrimp.

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[Roboto]

Thanks for the info.
They've been molting well. I counted 30 shells earlier in the week.
I'll definitely keep a close eye on them if things get wonky I'll up the kh for sure.
For now though, I'll keep on with the experiment.

 

[bsantucci]

Thanks for the info.

They've been molting well. I counted 30 shells earlier in the week.

I'll definitely keep a close eye on them if things get wonky I'll up the kh for sure.

For now though, I'll keep on with the experiment.

All good! Look into it yourself and Google neocaridina parameters. It's just proven husbandry that they need kh. You can keep a colony going for a while without it but it's not a long term solution.

I breed them all so I've spent a lot of time learning what they need.

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[[email protected]]

Is my ph to low. I don’t know which reading to believe?
Do you think it will be my driftwood causing the drop?
Not sure if I need to remove it or if it’s ok?

 

[bsantucci]

Is my ph to low. I don’t know which reading to believe?

Do you think it will be my driftwood causing the drop?

Not sure if I need to remove it or if it’s ok?

Nah ph is fine. The soil and driftwood both lower it. Focus on gh, kh, and tds.


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[Asteroid]

...It's just proven husbandry that they need kh. You can keep a colony going for a while without it but it's not a long term solution.

Just to throw it out there, I bred neos in aquasoil without KH for years. Had more than I knew what to do with. So the word "need" isn't necessarily true.

 

[bsantucci]

Just to throw it out there, I bred neos in aquasoil without KH for years. Had more than I knew what to do with. So the word "need" isn't necessarily true.

Curious what was your water source? There may be exceptions based on other factors but as a rule neos generally won't thrive in less than 2kh or so.

I've heard and seen random exceptions to the rule but I don't think that should be taught to beginners.

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[Asteroid]

Curious what was your water source? There may be exceptions based on other factors but as a rule neos generally won't thrive in less than 2kh or so.

I've heard and seen random exceptions to the rule but I don't think that should be taught to beginners.

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Tap water (KH 2 , PH 7.5), easily went to zero KH with aquasoil. Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what is it with Neos that would require KH as opposed to Bees.

 

[bsantucci]

Tap water (KH 2 , PH 7.5), easily went to zero KH with aquasoil. Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what is it with Neos that would require KH as opposed to Bees.

I think what you're showing there is the answer. You still were adding kh to the tank. So they'd get some before the soil buffered it. How long did you keep the soil in the tank? Adding kh to buffering soil depletes the buffering pretty quick to be honest so your water may have retained kh after a whole.

Bees come from soft water naturally. Neos come from slightly harder water environments. I think just evolution honestly causes the need. Low kh with neos you'll start seeing slowing populations, some molting problems, and the ring of death sometimes.

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[Asteroid]

I think what you're showing there is the answer. You still were adding kh to the tank. So they'd get some before the soil buffered it. How long did you keep the soil in the tank? Adding kh to buffering soil depletes the buffering pretty quick to be honest so your water may have retained kh after a whole.

Bees come from soft water naturally. Neos come from slightly harder water environments. I think just evolution honestly causes the need. Low kh with neos you'll start seeing slowing populations, some molting problems, and the ring of death sometimes.

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Ok, so I hear what your saying, but when someone states that KH is zero, it's almost always due to an active soil pushing it down there and they're confused about it. So this is more about giving someone advice not to worry that the KH is zero, since as you stated the buffering of soil will end. My KH was zero for a very long time, I can't tell you for sure if it ever moved up when I had the shrimp in there.

Most species adapt, especially if tank-raised, so wasn't sure why neos wouldn't as well.

 

[bsantucci]

Ok, so I hear what your saying, but when someone states that KH is zero, it's almost always due to an active soil pushing it down there and they're confused about it. So this is more about giving someone advice not to worry that the KH is zero, since as you stated the buffering of soil will end. My KH was zero for a very long time, I can't tell you for sure if it ever moved up when I had the shrimp in there.



Most species adapt, especially if tank-raised, so wasn't sure why neos wouldn't as well.

OP stated they are using RO water now though. So they are starting with no kh which is why I jumped in. When their tank was thriving it had a half degree of kh so I'm sure they were using tap at that point.

Fish are much more adaptive to water than shrimp. I don't know why, that science is above me. Maybe someone else can chime in here. But there are also fish that are exceptions, see discus.

Also, neos can do OK in buffering soil but it's kinda a waste to ruin buffering soil when they don't need it. Sand or inert gravel makes more sense for neos so you can maintain kh.

Like I said I'm just trying to push best practices, not exceptions to the norm.



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[Roboto]

Just curious, I don't know the answer, but what is it with Neos that would require KH as opposed to Bees.

This is the million dollar question in my eyes, and I know the standard answer from a kh believer will be "natural habitat."
But that really depends more on where they were bred, how long they may have been captive bred and what conditions they were in rather than what their ancestry lived in 10+ generations back.

Scientifically it would make sense that calcium is important for molting, and that's part of gh so my current breeding experiment with 0 KH (and a smallish seiryu stone) continues on.

I started with over 30 shrimplets, they are 3 weeks old and I still have more than 30 and I've seen more than 30 molted shells so in the short term all looks okay.

I'll track the experiment in my tank journal for sure.