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Discussion Starter #41
I'll do this every so often
random picture post





new species I got in from a very generous fella


So now my uaupes are melting one leaf at a time and my rio negro 2006's are not melting at all. This is all weird and whack to me...

GIANTS deficiency, formed halos, this is probably iron and traces, I never dosed them, and now after the giants don't have it anymore, maybe one or two




 

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Discussion Starter #44
Stronger lighting will force sideshoots faster. Top any syngonanthus, any, from what I've seen, that grow in our aquarium ( I've not tested Vichada yet) and the bottom will produce sideshoots. Some species very rapidly. Giants however, growth will be hindered, not to say they won't, sides just form way quicker with the top crown. But from what I've seen, to mass prop belem, manaus, madeira, lago grande, uaupes, rio 2006, (not sao Gabriel, always remained too short), caulescens, meta, variegated off the top of my head bottom will produce a bunch of sideshoots. Regardless, the plant sideshoots anyways, just if you want a little more and then a little more. nice prop tip.

Here in this picture are bottoms of uaupes, see they are splitting, you can see tops here and there


I love watching them split. You can pull the split by having a hand gripping the main stem and then pulling the sideshoot with the other hand. That's if you do not want to uproot the whole stem and prop that way.

sao Gabriel splitting

stunted, looks to me to be uaupes

split crown lago grande

and caulescens splitting


The genus in parts of south America lives in low to none nutrient waters. Iono about the rest of the world, how the waters are. But despite this, I've haven't seen a species that thrives more in rich nutrient waters. Keeping the water low of total dissolved salts. But heres the thing, in the realm of slightly acidic and slightly everything.
In speaking to others, (this goes for generally most all the aquatic species, I say most as something will pop up or science will always prove me wrong)
we can rule out things. I said everything slightly so
rule out tds
I spoke to a buddy with a tds of over 200, I believe, but not 300
gh 0-6 id guestimate is the safe side
kh0-1
ph slightly, so range 3s to maybe 8 (for belems), but 7 on safe side
moderate co2 and almost all range of lighting intensity, at least 20 par id say



Manaus
Reminds me of the new 'Meta' sp. Long internodes, thin leaves, and a crown, vs. Meta which is wider and a bit longer internodes and crown.

Belem
The plant that got me into the genus. Everyone knows belem, but there are variants, like variegated and white, bottom roots in soil as well as all others roots higher up, some go into the soil, others assumed absorbed nutrients through water column


lago grande
a classic beauty, grows very nicely in groups

poor


uaupes vs lago grande
they can look very similar, and if your growing them lenghty, uaupes can get tall as an average lago, and a lago, well a lago can just keep growing it seems
lago down the center

uaupes center, lago backround

uaupes

uaupes? lago? uaupes or lago?



^^^^^all uaupes^^^^^^

uaupes
could be a favorite of all time plant to me. Roots into the soil very slowly. Splits rapidly. Prone to melting.
Here is the pic I used to reference back in 2012, the one I got from crispino ramos
the plant on the right side center
Now I believe this plant was on its reserve, fast mass split, but it melted rapidly

^^^^^^^
I use this in reference to help ID, in the beginning I mixed all my S grade syngonanthus up, this means rio negro 2006, sao Gabriel, and rio uaupes. I have reference pic from Japan for sao Gabriel.
References



So certain syngonanthus can take on different shape and structure based on parameters
I can define uaupes as thicker leaves, leaves downward curvature, slow rooter, bottom most roots grip soil, splits a lot, wavier leaves, leaves can compare to erio Vietnam in design, tips but the erio Vietnam info is not my information. Tips can become white, white points and whitish outline of leaves. Growing, this can go for all, whitish centers that bounce back overnight then grow whitish into the photoperiod, this is in high light and I have not seen excess fertilization of macros to solve this issue, it could be traces and iron.
stunted

adult


fast

Rio Negro 2006
Similar to uaupes, small crown, splits fast, prone to melt, roots fast into soil, grips soil, looks more like a pineapple crown
mother

stunted

stunted too

glorious

group

uaupes vs rio negro 2006
left uaupes, right 2006

middle, right-uaupes, left 2006

sao Gabriel
thinnest leaves, shortest grower, most prone to melt, splits fast, lost species unless pops up on me
center front


alll three-views
now sao Gabriel it seemed to me to be this plant as it was like no other. It supposed to have thinner leaves but it is possible for the plant to thicken up in my tanks



uaupes
the easiest one to tell apart


rio negro 2006


Madeira
just like manaus, bigger crown, ability to morph bushiness all the way down the stem. The 'stem' itself can become thicker than any other I've seen except maybe caulescens
Giants
Trimming its leaves hinders growth, not the sideshoots but the crown leaves itself. Bottoms are slowed. The plant is the best overcrowder there is. Grows uniform, grows in unison.
giants looking like lago

giants looking like belem, back

bahia
bottom leaves attract algae like bba, its hard for me to keep algae off the older leaves of this plant, sensitive and prone to melt, been growing it for awhile but I keep rehacking it down, so its like restarting

caulescens
good nitrates, id say put in at least 10ppm kno3 per week, aerial roots root all the way down to the substrate, sideshoots get blocked of light



variegated, a belem variant, twisted leaves, patches of deficiency patterns, reverts to belem and reverts back, nutrient load does not seem to matter in this pattern process....

that's all I have for now, quaranteen has allotted me the time.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Everyone has their own systems and techniques and methods that they try over and over and it seems to be their routine. That's why you see someone saying well this worked for me and that worked for me. Examples of the systems are range of lighting, co2, fert methods, water parameters, etc. In developing my main syn tank, I decided I wanted a system similar to my moss frag tank. There needed to be established microorganisms, needed fish, a light constant of nh4 through the fish, co2 stable, o2 stable, fertilization stable, water stable with gh. One thing I've seen, is you gotta watch and carefully plan your system for good stability and adjustments of adaptation. Plants come from a wide range of enviromnments but we've also seen a wide range grow all in the same conditions. I believe there is a period of adaptation and if you keep changing your technique the algae will overcome. If you keep everything the same the system will develop(micro) as well the plants will grow keeping the system clean. What I'm trying to say is that I've gotten a regime going and I'm tweeking to perfect it still along with the natural biology working it too.

Perfecting my system. 20 gallon long syn tank

Ever since I switched to the wet/dry, in every situation, its been nothing but good results. Theres something about gas exchange that's really good for growing.
I switched from leds, to a 4 bulb t5
co2 is injected via a atomizer and another outlet into a mr aqua co2 reactor400
Things I noticed was the good circulation, co2 was hitting the bottom too. Very good results
But I needed fish
So I lowered the co2 considerably, I noticed gha influx on the walls the very next day, as well as halt in growth, but the plants adjust and adapt to the situation, they're fine
I began frontloading ~30ppm kno3, not per week, per water change. Water change is about 80% and maybe every 4 days. With this I needed to accomadate adding gh as I use pure ro.
I get it to about 3.

So the fish I got, 25 dwarf rainbows. pseudomugil gertrudae. I put 7 in the syn tank, and 18 in my frag moss tank. They probably see me as a big blob shadow, but I noticed that these fish see things I do not. The dwarf rainbows I see daily pinpointing with their eyes and then pecking at nothing. Could be a wall, or a plant, but nothing is there that they're pecking. The visible bugs that I've seen are now all gone, and they're still continually pecking and hunting.

New thing, I bought a blender, will see results of it.

Pictures, videos, on the way
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Way over the melt, I've been in propagation mode. Mainly uaupes and rio 2006, really hoping a sao Gabriel will pop up. But I must admit, aside from the originals I have groups blended. Both 2006 and uaupes. I'll tell when they're mothers. So in my goal for the tank, I have sold lots but tried not to sell those as well. My goal same, short, bushed out, mostly the whole tank. I do want to add a red I can put on the side. Id prefer pantanal but I can't reach my goal of getting it red, like real red/pink for a good length down. So I've sold some syns, mainly giants, they were rather hard to get rid of and remained getting taller and taller for some time, a little over a foot long and sideshoots at the very bottom mainly, a few exceptions.

So on to propagation, uaupes and 2006, all same concept, trim and spread as fast as the shoots become available, trim and spread tops, about half and inch crown. Fill in gaps missed as well. So if I can find a small space between stems I plant there, when all grown out you get a real nice good look. They all can overcrowd very well. I'd suggest good light. I trim them with my fingers, even with clipped nails you can pinch them together to a scissor type. Urea could be the quicker way to achievement, Im dosing so much macros already, I can try a little. Bottoms sideshoot a lot, takes a few days to see a tiny baby split. The plants keep me really entertained.

Been messing around with photoperiods. tried 12 hrs one day, I had it all timed at 6, now I've bumped it to 8hrs on timer. I really want that shoot production and as long (I have algae) as algae is not spreading, its all good to me. If I have algae that doesn't really go anywhere then i'm fine not even managing it. I've noticed this, old stems even that reach the surface for all that gas are more prone to algae than any of my trimmed stuff. Stuff in front and in corners are prone to mild algae stuff too. I've noticed in overdosing macros that leaf growth was a lot thicker, but algae was a lot thicker and harder to remove too, it stuck more, just say in overdosing that algae thrives more and is very healthy. Still the spread that worries me does not go very far.
5/23/2020

5/30/2020

6/6/2020

6/12/2020

6/15/2020

6/19/2020

6/23/2020

6/23/2020

6/23/2020

6/24/2020

6/25/2020

6/29/2020

6/29/2020

6/29/2020

6/30/2020

7/6/2020

7/11/2020


ps, my third tank, I've added urea to see if uaupes would melt. Alll plants in that tank grew a lot faster, but algae grew too, whispy s**t easily swayed in fact if I used algae fix it likely all be gone, I do not recommend algae fix for utricularia heterosepala, only plant that melted in the tank with that use. The tank is now just a holder of syn, overcrowded, a sell tank as you will, a swap species back and forth sort.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
ps, my third tank, I've added...
5/23/2020

5/26/2020

5/26/2020

5/29/2020

5/29/2020

6/4/2020 x7 pics







6/10/2020 x7 pics







6/28/2020 cut all splits down and all good stems together and redo x5 pics





7/3/2020 update some growth x5 pics





7/11/2020 x3 pics


 

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Discussion Starter #50
So when the favorite of my syns kept melting, I had to make use of other syns as filler for the whole tank.
Way over the melt, I've been in propagation mode. Mainly uaupes and rio 2006, really ho
Here are center progressions of my tank
5/17/2020

5/22/2020

5/26/2020

5/29/2020

5/30/2020

6/3/2020

6/6/2020

6/10/2020

6/12/2020

6/15/2020

6/19/2020

6/25/2020

6/30/2020

7/2/2020

7/2/2020

7/2/2020

7/5/2020

7/7/2020

7/7/2020

7/8/2020

7/11/2020

7/11/2020

7/12/2020

7/12/2020

7/12/2020

7/12/2020
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
I don't know if i mentioned Wong, but he is the one that helped me get through the melt. I told him my situation and right away he gave me a link on the 2 hr aquarist. I learned that the powdered broken down soil is no good. It can cause melting, bba and other algaes. So looking at my soil, its mostly all powder now. There is also seems sulfur build up by the smell.
I had the last two bags of malaya soil 3L on this earth, now gone. The plan I had
Fill water jugs ro water-always gotta have spare water on hand for any situation, for me is mostly for the sumps evaporation.
Pull any melted plants
Pull all syns and try to best identify them by 2006 and uaupes
Catch the fish
Siphon the substrate a bit, removing bits of powder bits of floating algae
Wipe glass
cap soil
plant
This was all done overnight. I mostly drink redbull to get me through.
well bummer, imgur or my imgur is down







 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
New soil. The melting starts and continues
New melt each day. I am manually removing stems that have leaf melt trying to stop the spread. This is disheartening, I just don't understand it.
It could be something with ammonia, fish, dosing
It could be the plants are not established, they're all chopped up, no root systems developed yet
Could be something leaching into my ro water
Cannot be gh/calcium deficiency, I add on most water changes, it ranges but never past 3, i test in a blue moon, or like each month
Doubt its co2, nor intense lighting
I hate this same pattern, it may get kush again, but then i'll get the disease again, i just don't understand it.
It was better with one or two plant melt in the powdered substrate
This is what I had before when the sub was all powdery




heres what im dealing with, video sums it up too
all taken 7/27/2020





 

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Discussion Starter #55
Hi Dennis,

It's me. Nam.
We talked on FB the other day.
Which kind of Syn would you recommend to use as a background plant?
Around 12" high.
Can Negro giant or Largo grande grow that long?
Hey buddy,
Both lago and rio negro giant can get there. Lago will be faster. Both are mid ground I'd say. Giant especially midground, it will keep getting taller but slowly. Getting my giants to 12" - 13" took months. Lago is a taller grower. Both look wonderful in groups and grown in unison.

A long lenghty stem vs a compact bushy lago could make all the difference in your scape.

Nutrient load and lighting spectrum seem to determine bushiness, compactness, thickness, lenghty lanky...

For background I recommend belem, manaus, madeira, all fast all gotta keep trimming. Giants dont need much of trimming
Regards
Dennis
 

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Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
So I went from rapid propagation to rapid decline. I'm pulling syn out just as fast as I split them. So all that propagation is losing stems daily. I switched some to my amazonia lite tank(sell tank) thats a bit aged soil. For safety and saving/storing. As of current I am not happy with any of my three tanks. My moss frag tank is overstocked with corydoras, blue dream shrimp, bluestar endlers, and pseudomugil gertrudae. I will eventually give away my corydoras, it hurt, cause they so darn cute, and my endlers, maybe transfer some to another tank, and keep the other two species. Reason being that the waste just keeps accumulating. I can clean a moss on driftwood and within a few hours the debris is back all over. So I made the major mistake of overstocking my tank. My main syn tank, is the most worked on, but you know repetitively ...melting. And my sell tank, is not selling fast enough, just so overcrowded. I'm not satisfied at all but got plenty of time to turn them around fast.

Recap
Main tank
20 g long
bridgelux led over
co2 reactor co2 atomizer diffusions, gla reg, sump
malaya aquasoil
pure ro, sometime rodi
remin caso4/mgso4
water changes
ei dosing
7/31/2020

Moss frag tank
acrylic 56 g custom, 36x30x12
wetdry filtration, purely bioballs
a lot of sulfur buildup
pure ro water changes
remin caso4/mgs04
ati x6 bulb dimmable fixture, only use 1 channel x 2 bulbs, hung
very old malaya, africana, and more recent but still very old chinese brand aquasoil
co2 into cerges reactor, very low injection, i don't even think it matters or see a visual difference
7/24/2020


sell tank
20g long
sunsun canister filter with uv
shallow water
pure ro
odyssea t5 fixture x 4 bulbs
amazonia lite, aged, humic acid beneath
co2 into mr aqua 400 reactor, ista regulator
dosing of urea trial
7/31/2020

 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
Since I'm getting rid of them i might as well explain my observations.
Corydoras behavior
These guys definitely communicate. Of course they're talking smack on me when they're just all grouped up not moving, but i don't hear them so it doesn't bother me. Joking aside, this is a def social fish. In their way of communicating by means of I don't know how, theres a leader and they swim in unison, split apart, disperse, regroup. Very fun to watch. Their smell sense must be really strong as when food put in the lead will find within probably 20 seconds in my 56g squarish tank. But I saw an interesting pattern in eating food. I can see them coordinate with each other getting their share of food and then swim in back of line till they bury their barbs into the food again. Swapping and alternating its cool to see. Lay and sit as they chew food. Its very cool to have a group of the same species, swimming in unison, exploring the whole tank together and finding food. Waste is another matter, they produce a good bit. The whole group is not always together, they'll break into little shoals of 3 or more as well as regroup too. Breeding, I haven't been able to get them to breed, i heard entice them good water change and live foods, but I don't feed live foods. Got a variety of 8 kensfood sinking pellets. I've gotten habrosus to breed but that was way years ago and was never successful. Lights off and then sudden lights on, just as any fish mostly they'll be all whitish dull or something i can't describe well but they'll color backk up assuming comfortness. The elegans are midswimmers sometimes and also do the thing where they jump to the surface for that gulp of air. I was really surprised by their mobility in and out of the woods and landings. Very cool to see maneuvering.


 

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Discussion Starter #58
Throughout the day in my main tank(20 gallon long, reactor and atomizer in sump, where all the melting is happening in s grades) co2 bubbles start to build up and start multiplying. It doesn't happen right away, not instantly, but as the bubbles build they start hitting the substrate and flow back all the way to the outflow spray bar. Even with surface agitation the bubbles build up. This is a good observation that there are no dead spots.

A side tip, you can kind've gauge the nh4 leech by the amount of algae your getting. Other common ferts will not bloom algae. But there are a lot of other factors involve, so debunk.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
For syngonanthus especially the higher the light as you push the plant more and more whitish centers occur. In moderate lighting with ei dosing, they'll always be full and green. My system usually involves moderate light and over enough supplementation. I believe higher and higher light shocks the plant to whitish but then rebounds through the resting period.

I see it as this, which is better
White tops, losing energy, shocks, rebounds and grows

or

Always replenished with more than enough food, on I'd say a stable speed of growth, always full color

So I've been trying a blast period. I will update. But I am always supplementing over ei on the macros.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
One of my goals is to get pantanal very red. I'm not there yet, but looking at its color as of now, its got my observation recently. Co2 has been consistent ever since I got 20# tank months back and set it up months back. Bummed out by the melt of syns I just stopped caring and didn't do anything to the tank for a week. I had put new soil in. So I stopped dosing, I stopped water changing and the tank just ran itself. To my amazement new ada soil is just king for rapid growth. Add the co2, the bright lighting with a fully stocked tank can lead to good results. So back to the pantanal, I stopped dosing, but I don't think its nitrate limitation either. There may still be a good amount in there, along with whatever N or NH4 the soil has with. I assume this, because all my plants are coming in thick. Not sure how much water changes take out but I'm back to doing them. As some see tops closer to the surface more red, theres a trick, you trim toss the bottom, and the red grows on top the red if i can explain it right, thats the only way i think I can accomplish pantanal red all the way down. I have seen dulling in colors from excess dosing, but I have to accomplished colors in the excess dosing. So I really think its lighting. So iono, bewildering. Roots don't really bury too much so its easy to uproot and trim replant without floating soil up with.
Im really disssappointed on how the camera pics up the reds, but here anyways.
all pictures 8/19.2020



full tank shot


thick growth



giants

same giants

they were planted by size but u can see some just spurt taller growth
 
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