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I'd start small. Go with 1/4 of a leaf and see what that does to your tanks. Expect to see some tannins in the water.
 

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These will definitely leach tannins in the water. I use these leaves to make "tadpole tea" for my frog eggs/tadpoles.

Scott
Sanford, Maine
 

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I think the rough estimate is one large leaf for a 10 gallon, left in for two weeks. I have some coming in the mail also, going to try them with some incoming tiger shrimp.
 

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The shrimp do love them, more than oak or beach but they nibble on those too. I cut them up and just replace them when there is nothing left but the leaf skeleton. I don’t put in a lot, but they don’t do much to the water, yeah a little tannin and a little softening maybe. I soak them for a night before putting them in the tank in case they have any pollution on them. Don’t notice any difference in breeding for CRS cherries bumble bee shrimp since using them but the shrimp certainly like them.
 

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So I put half a leaf in one of my ten gallons (with the CRS and Cherries) and I have to say it definetly does stain the water, but not too bad, it's just a very light yellow brown. No one died, everyone is eating and molting and eating. You know who loves these leaves is my pond snails. The shrimp like to eat the torn margins where I'm guessing it's more waterlogged and soft.
I put a quarter of a leaf in my other 10 gallon tank with the threadfins rainbows and it really brings out their eyes and the green plants in the tank. With a quarter leaf there isn't much of a change but it gives the water a very slight amber tinge, making it "warmer" looking.
These leaves are huge though, there's not enough room to stuff them in the aquarium drawer.
 

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I can send you some folded up in an envelope. Pm me with your address.
Ianiwane, you too. I think you got some duds last time. ;)
 

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Why not fed the shrimp , something tasty and nutritious like the Shrimp biscuits or spinach or freswh Almond leaves??????

Rotting leaves are really just being decomposed by bacteria and fungi, the smaller inverts eat them and the shrimps pick and eat that.

Place a leaf in a tank and place a sponge filter on your intake.
The shrimps tend to go for the sponge filter as that where the food is.
It's not the leaf itself, it's the critters on them.
Sponge filter intakes are great, my shimps all hang out and pick it.

If I feed the shrimps some good food, they leave quickly and go after the food, not the leaves.

The issue with the tannins, there are many tannins and they really have little effect on plants/algae. The tannins in natural systems are fairly well studied, there are several papers out on this tree leaf species and its decomposition.

None on aquatic plants and algae though.
You can also make your own shrimp biscuit and add the leaves in there also.
A fresh leaf would be a more nutrious item than a dried one.

If it's not, it's safe to assume that the leaves are secondary and that the decompsers are really what the shrimp are after. In that case, it does not matter much what type of leaves you add, just as long as they support a good array of decomposers.

Think about nutrition for the shrimp/plants/algae etc, not homopathic remedies. You will have better luck.
Aloe, garlic, peat(tannins, how things come full circle it seems.......), enzymes, tonics, many other things.......

I've seem much better success from breeders, hobbyists that focus on those rather these homopathic additives over the years.
Focus on the needs of the critter/plant.

Also, if you do use these things, place them in a high current area, near the intake etc. You can also put them in the filter etc in a small bag if you think it's something chemically in them that's helping.

But when you suggest it's a nutritive addition, then you are looking at an entire new set of issues, what is the best foods for shrimps etc.

What are the better mangement methods for good helth of critters?
Rotting leaves?
I have grave doubts there.

I'd suggest good water quailty, good wide range of food, good stocking, lots of plants, good water changes etc. These are what causes most critters to breed.
KH variation which might be the issue with adding the leaves is possible, same deal with peat, that's something you could test for also.

I dount you are going to see the same effect vs what I've suggested in terms fo health and breeding though, you can lower KH other ways and with peat, something that's been done for many decades with Apistos and other fish. But if you just used RO or peat here and there, I think that would do the same for the most part.

Regards,
Tom Barr


















Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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Tom, you killjoy, you and your logical, knowledgeable, and practical approach. Bah, I say!
It's really just a novelty snake oil experiment. The shrimps get their normal flake and algae wafers every day. It's more of a snack alternative for them. If they are tired of the microscopic yuckies on the moss, the sponge filter, rocks, glass, they can have the grossness that is rotting leaves. It's more like an addition to the buffet, if you will.
Speaking of homemade foods, I think I might have caught shrimpy biscuit fever. I have a little list of ingredients that I'd like to try that I just made up thanks to the handy dandy USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference.
 

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Tom, you killjoy, you and your logical, knowledgeable, and practical approach. Bah, I say!
It's really just a novelty snake oil experiment. The shrimps get their normal flake and algae wafers every day. It's more of a snack alternative for them. If they are tired of the microscopic yuckies on the moss, the sponge filter, rocks, glass, they can have the grossness that is rotting leaves. It's more like an addition to the buffet, if you will.
Speaking of homemade foods, I think I might have caught shrimpy biscuit fever. I have a little list of ingredients that I'd like to try that I just made up thanks to the handy dandy USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference.
The leaves ashould not be a snake oil experiment. They havebeen proved to be great source of food by german breeders. Most of the shrimp found in the wild live in areas were there is tons of leaf matter in the water. So most of their diet is composed of the microorganisms in that grow on them. If you want to feed them supplemental food, you can do it.

-Pedro
 

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Tom, you killjoy, you and your logical, knowledgeable, and practical approach. Bah, I say!
It's really just a novelty snake oil experiment. The shrimps get their normal flake and algae wafers every day. It's more of a snack alternative for them. If they are tired of the microscopic yuckies on the moss, the sponge filter, rocks, glass, they can have the grossness that is rotting leaves. It's more like an addition to the buffet, if you will.
Speaking of homemade foods, I think I might have caught shrimpy biscuit fever. I have a little list of ingredients that I'd like to try that I just made up thanks to the handy dandy USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference.
Yea:)
But I have done so much snake oil testing already:)
When we use to drill for them thar snakes, they near ate a town, they made a movie about it, "Tremors"!

You can add vitamins, fresh greens, proteins eg Myoplex, GNC brand items, weight lifting supplements etc. There's just so many things that make more sense to fiddle with:)

Pedro,
Whether they are German , Japanese, Fungawi or not makes not a bit of difference. I can say this same claim about Bald Cypress, Water oak, or any dozen or so species from various locations around the world.

My questioning ask more than just the causual.

Why would it not be better to use fresh leaves of the tree?
Would the health of the shrimps be improved, since this is the goal of adding these leaves is it not(?!) and some effort is required to add them and obtain them, would such efforts be better focused elsewhere?

I can make this same claim for 5000 things, plants, fish, shrimps, etc and in all hopes of improving their health.

Whether it works or not is tough to show.
Was it the leaves? Was it simply trying to do other things to help the shrimp?

Was it the leaves themselves or the critters decomposing the leaves?
what's been said so far is the chemicals inside the leaves, that's what some whiners claimed.

Next is was the leaves themselves, now you are saying what I already suggested, the critters doing the decomposing and shredding the leaves.

Seems no one really knows much about why the shrimp are doing better and it's certainly species specific as far as the shrimp are concerned as well, many are not from the native range of this plant.
Now if the masses of Germans have proven this as you sugegst, where the proof and where's the methods they used to show this?

Heck, I'm curious and trying to figure out what can be known and how best to direct a test, my energy into resolving a good plan to improve the critter's health, since that is the presumed goal is it not?

I've looked up some research papers on the chemicals and plausible effects.
I'm curious why no one else has? If they have as some suggest, where is it? I have 2 thick old books sitting here, on the Limnology of Humic Waters, the other is the Ecology of Humic Substances in Freshwater. I have 3 papers I've found on this plant's leaf extracts.

What do you folks have beside this?
Don't take personal offense when some one ask a dang question.:thumbsup:
It's not personal, never was. It's about the topic and the leaves and seeing what it is we can reasonably learn.
Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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Yea:)
But I have done so much snake oil testing already:)
When we use to drill for them thar snakes, they near ate a town, they made a movie about it, "Tremors"!
ROFL! :hihi:
If I started stealing my husband's Myoplex, I think he'd be a bit miffed. "But honey, it's for my shrimp!" Think they'd like strawberry, vanilla, or chocolate better?
As for the dry/still green debate, I was considering getting a live Indian almond tree. But the legend goes it must be dried leaves freshly dropped with no green. I wonder if the green leaves fungus and decompose differently than the dried. Or the antibacterial aphrodisiac tannin fairies only sprinkle their special dust on the dried ones.
If you'd like some leaves, I'd be happy to send you some Tom. Might make a believer of you yet!
 

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Oh I done tried them once.
I'm not impressed.
I'd be willing to try more, but I need some specific claims to test for.
Such as the specifics the Germans or whomever supposely have proven.

If it's provable, I should be able to repeat the test right?
I have enough ability there I think.
I have 3 tanks available for testing such oils.

Sure, go ahead, fresh and dried leaves(why limit it to just the dead old dried leaves without all the goodies in them?) but I need the specific shrimp, I can get bee and CRS's, Cherries and Amano.

I'm getting some Amano's and Cherries anyway.
So no big deal.

PM me if you have some of both.
I'll see if those that have "proven" it have any details other than "I added it and it made my fish/shrimp breed".




Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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To those I have been trying to send leaves to...
The envelopes came back as "non machineable"... maybe because they are stuffed with leaf parts. I'll try with larger envelopes and two stamps this weekend ;)
 

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Tom I really enjoy reading your posts, you know what your talking about and you have the logical approach that most of in this hobby are missing:help: ...

I've always been really interested in why people always say these leaves are so special, When it comes to special ingredients I always think of all those weight loss comercials... Eat right and you'll be fine. Could this be the same for the shrimp?:icon_ques

Why not fed the shrimp , something tasty and nutritious like the Shrimp biscuits or spinach or freswh Almond leaves??????

Rotting leaves are really just being decomposed by bacteria and fungi, the smaller inverts eat them and the shrimps pick and eat that.


...If it's not, it's safe to assume that the leaves are secondary and that the decompsers are really what the shrimp are after. In that case, it does not matter much what type of leaves you add, just as long as they support a good array of decomposers.

What are the better mangement methods for good helth of critters?
Rotting leaves?
I have grave doubts there.

I'd suggest good water quailty, good wide range of food, good stocking, lots of plants, good water changes etc. These are what causes most critters to breed.
For the tastey thing, I think you should personally that's why I've started making invert food. Now if this has something that is important it could help the food a lot...

I think that's what the shrimp are after(the fungi and bacteria and stuff). I've also read of people using other leaf litter such as oak, and magnolia. I think that Indian almond leaves are used because they lower PH usually because they are somewhat acidic.

Rotting leaves shouldn't be good for anyones health. But what is rotting them could be right?

Was it the leaves themselves or the critters decomposing the leaves?
what's been said so far is the chemicals inside the leaves, that's what some whiners claimed.
Some people use these leaves to lower their PH supposedly, while others claim it's whats on the leaves. I don't think the leaves themselves are nutritious though.

Sure, go ahead, fresh and dried leaves(why limit it to just the dead old dried leaves without all the goodies in them?) but I need the specific shrimp, I can get bee and CRS's, Cherries and Amano.
I Think you should try all but Amano, since they Aren't FW breeders it would be too confusing and could mess with your results. Furthermore you should think about doing two types of Neocaridina and two types of Caridina , probably the wild types (bee, and brown rcs) and then the domestic types, (RCS and CRS) so maybe you will have more accurate results.

I think this type of testing would be quite hard to do accuratly since there are many variables which could change all the sudden and mess the whole thing up.

If anyone can do it it's you though!

-Andrew
 
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