[otter]

OK, I just received my CRS from Gabe. I first opened the top of the shipping container a crack and let them sit for 1/2 an hour to reacclimate to light. Then I dumped them into a goldfish bowl, since I haven't decided which of two tanks they are going to live in. I threw in one single piece of Hikari crab cuisine, which they seemed to attack rather well. Then I started doing all of my water tests.
Here's the water parameters from the two possible homes, and the water that they were shipped in:

Tank 1: 46g bow topless, 192W 6700/10,000K, Soilmaster Select, Filstar XP2, pressurized Co2, Milwaukee reg & SMS122, AM 1000, Hydor ETH, cork/moss wall EI DOSING
Tank 2: 5g topless cherry shrimp tank, 36W 6700K, flourite, ZooMed 501, DIY Hagen Co2 & bubble ladder, Milwaukee SMS122, cork/moss wall NO DOSING
Gabes water:

Tank1 Tank 2 Gabes water
NO3 10 0 5
NH3 .1 0-.1 .6
NO2 0-.1 0 .2
PO4 5+ .25 5+
KH 11 13.4 2.2
PH 6.8 7.0 7.1 (measured with SMS 122)

My rested tap water is 8.1


So anyways... I've never had ammonia as high as what was in the shipped water, so I poured in about a cup of RO water (from a store bought jug). About an hour later, I noticed all of the shrimp kind of freaking out and swimming frantically kind of congregating in the upper corner of the bowl. From various threads I've read here this behavior would be an indication of impending doom! Did I do something wrong by adding the RO water? What should be my next step?

 

[Ankit]

Did you put the shrimp in the tank yet?

I had some trouble getting mine acclimated and actually removed from the bag in a way that I could use a drip line to acclimate them. Because of some issues, I ended up having to just put them into my tank directly without much more than a 1 minute acclimation. Yes, it was bad, but they're doing just fine.

I think you'll be fine.

What temperature are you keeping the tank at? If it's CRS only in either, then might want to drop it down to 73.5 or so, that's where I keep mine.

 

[otter]

I didn't put them into tha tank yet, I was hoping to get more feedback based on the water parameters. I was going to change the 46 tank to aquasoil based on recommendations here, but decided that an RO system would be a better way to lower ph in all my tanks, so I've been slowly incresing the amount of RO at every water change. Based on my tests I have a ways to go yet.

 

[elpezpr]

I think you should acclimate them now to the tank selected and leave them be. By adding the RO water to a small tank you altered their water drastically. Shrimp are sensitive to hardness changes and RO water has very little oxygen if it's not areated beforehand.

 

[otter]

Did you put the shrimp in the tank yet?

I had some trouble getting mine acclimated and actually removed from the bag in a way that I could use a drip line to acclimate them. Because of some issues, I ended up having to just put them into my tank directly without much more than a 1 minute acclimation. Yes, it was bad, but they're doing just fine.

I think you'll be fine.

What temperature are you keeping the tank at? If it's CRS only in either, then might want to drop it down to 73.5 or so, that's where I keep mine.

What is your kh/ph out of the tap? My plan was to match their water as closely as possible, can I acclimate them to what my tank currenly is, and continue to lower the kh and ph by adding RO? or will this be stressful to them? It hasn't seemed to bother the cherry shrimp, but they seem bullet proof. thanks!

 

[jgb77]

Tank # 2 seems to be the best candidate for the crs. But the problem is the kh too high. If you can maybe you should try adding ro water to the tank to get the kh lower. I don't like to add any food to the water they came in because they have been dirtying the water the whole time they've been in there and the food can only cause more polluting of the water. In all honesty, you should have checked what conditions crs need to be happy in, and had a tank ready for them when they arrived. But, try doing what I suggested and go from there.
Also, use a drip to acclimate them slowly to the new water conditions. Hope this helps,
John

 

[otter]

Tank # 2 seems to be the best candidate for the crs. But the problem is the kh too high. If you can maybe you should try adding ro water to the tank to get the kh lower. I don't like to add any food to the water they came in because they have been dirtying the water the whole time they've been in there and the food can only cause more polluting of the water. In all honesty, you should have checked what conditions crs need to be happy in, and had a tank ready for them when they arrived. But, try doing what I suggested and go from there.
Also, use a drip to acclimate them slowly to the new water conditions. Hope this helps,
John

Yeah, the water had lots of shrimp excrement in it, that's why I only added a single piece of food. I wanted to see if they ate it to judge how healthy the arrived. I did lots or research prior, just didn't meet my goals before they arrived. I've been slowly adding tank water from "tank #2", I just removed the fish, and decided this will better in the long run since it's much larger, and the smaller tank is already stuffed with cherry shrimp.

 

[jgb77]

I think if you acclimate them slowly they will be ok. I've received crs from Gabe a few times and his shrimp are very healthy, they should be ok, just take it slow.
John

 

[otter]

I think if you acclimate them slowly they will be ok. I've received crs from Gabe a few times and his shrimp are very healthy, they should be ok, just take it slow.
John

Gotcha.. working on it. thanks! Any other tips appreciated too.

 

[toddnbecka]

The ammonia in the shipping water is always higher after the critters spending several days in a small volume w/out filtration, and the pH will be lower for the same reason. Adding the r/o water to the bag isn't necessary, just place them into a larger container and drip tank water slowly with a piece of airline tubing. A clothespin to hold the tubing bent somewhat will slow down the drip rate. About one hour or so is a good length of time to acclimate them before discarding the shipping water and moving the shrimp into the tank.

 

[otter]

The ammonia in the shipping water is always higher after the critters spending several days in a small volume w/out filtration, and the pH will be lower for the same reason. Adding the r/o water to the bag isn't necessary, just place them into a larger container and drip tank water slowly with a piece of airline tubing. A clothespin to hold the tubing bent somewhat will slow down the drip rate. About one hour or so is a good length of time to acclimate them before discarding the shipping water and moving the shrimp into the tank.

Cool... it's done. They seem to be happy. Thanks!

 

[aman74]

I'm surprised at all the recommendations to drip acclimate.

When shipping in bags the CO2 builds up in the bag and lowers the pH lowering the toxicity of the ammonia by converting to ammonium.

When you open the back and start a drip or adding small amounts of tanks water, etc... the CO2 is released and your pH rises and the ammonium reverts back to ammonia and you harm your livestock.

If you want to float the bags I would do it in some seperate water of the same temp as your tank water. Floating the bags can allow contaminants and disease into your tank from the outside of the bag.

Most pros get the livestock out of the bags asap. Just net them out of the bags or pour the bags over a net and get them into a tank.

I'll try to find some articles on this, can't seem to find my bookmarked items.

 

[epicfish]

I'm surprised at all the recommendations to drip acclimate.

When shipping in bags the CO2 builds up in the bag and lowers the pH lowering the toxicity of the ammonia by converting to ammonium.

When you open the back and start a drip or adding small amounts of tanks water, etc... the CO2 is released and your pH rises and the ammonium reverts back to ammonia and you harm your livestock.

This is from http://www.novalek.com/kordon/breathing_bags/index.htm

Carbon dioxide exits the bags at 4 times the rate oxygen enters the bags, thereby constantly purging the water of toxic carbon dioxide, and allowing oxygen to replace it in the water.

So, if it allows for passage of CO2 and O2, would that mean that there's no build-up of CO2 in the bag and the aforementioned re-conversion of ammonium to ammonia? Of course, this statement is only true for breather bags that allow for diffusion of CO2 and O2 during livestock transport.

I agree with you if the shipper is using regular 3mil, 4mil, etc...bags to ship the livestock in.

But with the increased use of breather bags, I'm not sure your argument is true...unless the breather bags don't do what they advertise, or there's a chemical side-reaction that totally slipped my mind.

 

[aman74]

This is from http://www.novalek.com/kordon/breathing_bags/index.htm

It's not "from" anywhere. It's just what happens.

So, if it allows for passage of CO2 and O2, would that mean that there's no build-up of CO2 in the bag and the aforementioned re-conversion of ammonium to ammonia? Of course, this statement is only true for breather bags that allow for diffusion of CO2 and O2 during livestock transport.

I agree with you if the shipper is using regular 3mil, 4mil, etc...bags to ship the livestock in.

But with the increased use of breather bags, I'm not sure your argument is true...unless the breather bags don't do what they advertise, or there's a chemical side-reaction that totally slipped my mind.

My argument never mentioned breather bags.

That aside, you bring up a good point to consider. Also, 1.5 mil bags will breathe as well.

So if we know that the fish will have enough O2 to make their intended trip, maybe the breather bags cause more harm then good by having a higher toxicity of ammonia? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'd really like to hear from people in the know.

I would love to see more discussion on this topic so we can all learn instead of acceptiong conventional wisdom that is often false.

I think it's far more common of a situation for the average hobbiest to receive your standard poly bag at a LFS and even shipped to them. Get it home and think they are doing the fish a service with the drip and in reality causing permanent ammonia burns or at the least added stress.

I've never seen evidence supporting pH shock, but quite a bit on ammonia poisoning.

 

[epicfish]

It's not "from" anywhere. It's just what happens.

I always back up what I say with links from reputable sources; in this case, the manufacturer of Kordon Breather Bags. Hence the "This is from...xxxxx URL"

My argument never mentioned breather bags.

Yes I know, I stated that in my post.

I think it's far more common of a situation for the average hobbiest to receive your standard poly bag at a LFS and even shipped to them. Get it home and think they are doing the fish a service with the drip and in reality causing permanent ammonia burns or at the least added stress.

Most of the shrimp and fish I've received on the forums are actually shipped in Kordon Breather Bags. I'd say at least 95% of the shipments I've received. Again, this is from hobbyists and not online stores that sell fish since I have no experience with them.

At the LFS, however, they're all in poly bags, but the car ride to my home is usually short (less than an hour), so I doubt the levels of ammonia produced would be harmful.

And yes, I'd like to hear other experiences, arguments, and further discussion regarding this issue!

 

[aman74]

I always back up what I say with links from reputable sources; in this case, the manufacturer of Kordon Breather Bags. Hence the "This is from...xxxxx URL"

I thought you were saying that's where I got my info from, since you quoted me and then stated "this is from". I misunderstood you.

Yes I know, I stated that in my post.

You were presenting a counterpoint to an argument I never made. Get it? You said my argument wasn't true unless the breather bags didn't work as advertised, but I never mentioned their use. You brought up a good point, but my point is 100 percent true when using a non-breathable bag.

Most of the shrimp and fish I've received on the forums are actually shipped in Kordon Breather Bags. I'd say at least 95% of the shipments I've received. Again, this is from hobbyists and not online stores that sell fish since I have no experience with them.

At the LFS, however, they're all in poly bags, but the car ride to my home is usually short (less than an hour), so I doubt the levels of ammonia produced would be harmful.

And yes, I'd like to hear other experiences, arguments, and further discussion regarding this issue!

An hour can be problematic. Certainly not like a trip through the mail. And size of fish, amount of fish per bag, size of bag, etc... all come into play.

Yes, breather bags are very popular amongst us more dedicated hobbiests. Just not with the majority of users, especially with the LFS and commercial shippers that the average hobbiest will encounter. The drip-acclimating method is being recommended to hobbiests for whom it may do more harm then good.

Some links:

http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Acclimate.htm

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=84883

 

[epicfish]

You were presenting a counterpoint to an argument I never made. Get it? You said my argument wasn't true unless the breather bags didn't work as advertised, but I never mentioned their use.

I actually agreed with you on the issue.

I agree with you if the shipper is using regular 3mil, 4mil, etc...bags to ship the livestock in.

But with the increased use of breather bags, I'm not sure your argument is true...unless the breather bags don't do what they advertise, or there's a chemical side-reaction that totally slipped my mind.

I merely added that with the increased use of breather bags in the hobby, your argument might not be true. Or, it could still be true if there were other factors I hadn't considered.

 

[aman74]

Sorry if I got caught up on semantics.

This is a good discussion.

 

[epicfish]

Sorry if I got caught up on semantics.

This is a good discussion.

It's a great discussion. I've read up on those links regarding ammonia poisoning, very informative! Thanks.

 

[Color Me Blue]

Don't mean to hijack Otter's thread, but this is actually a good discussion! Maybe we need to start a new thread about this??

I've always drip-acclimated my aquatic creatures. But then I've also just tossed them in too, without any bad effects. Sooooooooooooo....from reading that article/link, it makes you wonder.?? What is the "best" way to introduce your new fish/shrimp/etc?

Ex. I've drip-acclimated my shrimp and you can see they are stressed (coloring is washed away). It's not till I place them into my tank, that they start to color up after a while. So maybe just toss them into the tank as soon as you get home? By the info in that article, it says that is what you should do.

What are other's experience with this?? I really think we need a new thread for this discussion.