Is C02 really this baffling ?

Others may disagree, but here's a list of a basic CO2 system that should serve you well. If you want to upgrade later to an "all singing, all dancing" setup, then you're always able to do that when you have a better feel for what song and dance you prefer.

Here's my list of what to get. It is exactly what I run (except I also run a pH controller, but you don't need that):

• 10 pound CO2 cylinder
• Milwaukee M957 Regulator – it has the solenoid and bubble counter already on it
• CO2 tubing (as opposed to regular tubing)
• DIY Reactor – Pick from either the Rex style or the Cerges style (either will work fine and are easy to make so make whichever one you think seems easier to you).
• Check Valve – the brass ones are better quality; stay away from the plastic ones
• Nylon/plastic seals
• Drop Checker – optional, but helpful
• 4dhk solution – to go in the drop checker

This is a good, basic, standard setup. There are various places in which you can buy each item. First, look around for used CO2 cylinders. If you can't find one locally, you can order them online. The best price I've found for mine so far is here: http://www.aquariumplants.com/Aluminum_CO2_Cylinders_CO2_tanks_CO2_cannisters_p/t.htm

Definitely shop around for pricing on the regulator. I've bought mine off of eBay. You should be able to pick one up for around $90. Don't pay any more than that.

Get the tubing wherever. You can use regular tubing until you can add the CO2 tubing onto another order to save on shipping.

DIY reactor. Here are the build threads with instructions on how to make either type.
NOTE: Take some time to skim through these threads for updates on the builds since improvements were made after the first design. Or when you go to make one, run some searches. If you get stuck, you can always ask for help.

I think some of the guys on the board sell some of the Clippard check valves. Check the For Sale forum and run a search or leave a WTB message in the WTB/RAOK forum.

The nylon or plastic seals look like washers and are put in between the CO2 cylinder and the regulator when you connect them. You must use a new seal every time. You can usually get them at the place where you get your CO2 refills.

There are different styles of drop checkers with a wide variety of prices to match. Do some searches on your favorite online fish stores to see what's out there. If you want a nice looking one and are willing to spend the money, the Cal Aqua drop checkers are nice. Green Leaf sells them. You can pick up some 4dhk solution there while you're at it. http://greenleafaquariums.com/co2-drop-checkers.html

That should cover everything. From that list, you can chose other brands or whatever, but at least it gives you something to help you get started.

stevenjohn21 said:

im already a little scared about a pressurized tank being under a glass tank holding 75 gallons of water !

Click to expand...

A couple of other things. You didn't say what fears you had, but I know when I first got started, I was literally afraid the whole thing could blow up or something. I don't think I really thought that, but I just felt intimidated by just not knowing anything about it.

One thing that might ease your fears a little (at least it did mine) is to know that CO2 is not explosive nor is it flammable. I had been concerned about driving around in 100° heat with three 10 lbs cylinders full of CO2 in the trunk of my car. The guys at the welding shop assured me there was no danger. They were not going to explode. Not due to the heat and not even if someone hit the rear of my car. The worst that would happen is the CO2 would leak out.

Also, in the 5 years I've been enjoying this great hobby, I have never heard of even one single accident in which anyone was hurt or any damage occurred because of a CO2 cylinder. The most common problem is CO2 leaking due to poor connections which results in the tank emptying out too early which we don't like. But since CO2 is cheap, it's more of the inconvenience of having to get a refill than anything else.

Ive also been reading about single stages "dumping, end of tank" why would this happen and why does it not happen in dual stages ?

Click to expand...

Yes, there is such a thing as an end of tank dump (EOTD), but it's not as bad as it may seem. If it happened all the time, we'd all be killing our fish. It's a rare occurrence. There are a number of factors that contribute to an EOTD, such as it happening at night (most people don't run their CO2 at night) on tanks with tight fitting lids (most people have open top tanks), as well as a number of other factors.

The main thing you need to know is that you will be able to see that the cylinder if running out of CO2 before an EOTD occurs. The main pressure will begin to drop a few days in advance. This will be your clue that you need to get the cylinder refilled. I just went through this very thing last weekend in which I actually managed the end of tank (non) dump by adjusting the working pressure as the cylinder ran dry. I was able to keep the CO2 going without any harm to my fish.

But moreover, I am honestly not the best at checking my main pressure every day. The way I normally figure out that I've ran out of CO2 is to see that my drop checker has changed color, indicating low CO2 in my tank. Then I look at my CO2 setup and discover I'm out of CO2. That means if there was an EOTD, it has already happened. And, yet, my fish are always fine. Keep in mind that I do run my CO2 at night and I am using single stage Milwaukee M957 regulators. So the EOTD does not happen simply because you run out of CO2 while using a single stage regulator. It requires a number of factors to occur simultaneously.

there is no such thing as eotd there is no dumping! is just a rise and decay its a old bad saying that just makes more explaining! its just like people still going on about wpg rather than the actuall output of light. with that out of the way a good ssr will minimize the rise/decay issue a dual stage *dsr is basicly two regulators in one so it stops rise/decay. if you can get a victor,smith or there ssr there built much better than the cheaper ones but cost is allways a issue so you really should get a price in mind and that might point you i the right direction a little better.

also if u do get a ssr keeping a higher psi can and will help minimize the % increase if you do run it empty this is also a reason to NOT put the co2 to the limit! which many people do then u see them back on here i gassed my fish , go slow rushing only leads to spending more cash and redoing it.

rise/decay happends due to the co2 going from liquid to a gas

if your looking to save cash buy it seperate and assemble it yourself its not rocket science, this also allows you to get exactly what u want, id highly suggest getting a good needlevalve you will thank me later if you ever have the chance to compair a good one vs pos one its not something to skimp on!

id also say get a 20lb tank its cheaper to fill lasts several times longer and is only a 4"? inch taller than a 10lb its just more logical if it fits with your set up.

ps read over this should answer any ?'s you might still have http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=107312

If you'd prefer to not call it EOTD, that's fine. But there is an event when the cylinder runs dry that can lead to an increased amount of CO2 being injected ("dumped") into the tank. I actually watched it happen on my own setup just this last weekend. And none of it has anything to do with CO2 going from liquid to gas. It has to do with pressure and how the regulator is able to manage the pressure.

When the cylinder runs dry, the pressure drops. The regulator can then become unstable, losing the ability to properly regulate the lowered pressure. As a result, it "dumps" the CO2 to whatever is next in line. If it it a dual stage regulator, the next in line is a second regulator that is designed to handle the lower pressure. However, if the regulator is a single stage, then next in line is the needle valve. In this case, the ability of the needle valve to handle the pressure becomes very important. If the needle valve can handle the pressure, then everything will be okay. But if it can't, then the CO2 passes right on through. This is the potentially harmful CO2 overdose that can gas the fish.

I saw this happen with my own regulator this last weekend. As my CO2 cylinder lost pressure, the regulator became unstable. It dropped down to 0 as if there was no pressure; however, there was still pressure left. Everything then fell to my needle valve. Fortunately, my needle valve was able to handle the pressure. My working pressure increased two-fold when I first saw what was going on. I adjusted it manually to decrease it. A couple of hours later, it had jumped back up to twice my normal setting. Again, the needle valve held. And, again, I adjusted the working pressure down to relieve the pressure. I kept doing this until I turned it all off for the night.

The next morning, there was still more pressure available when I turned it back on. Again, only the working pressure was registering. My main pressure remained at 0. The cylinder was not empty (as I confirmed when I finally took the regulator off on Monday). After readjusting the working pressure a couple more times to manage the increased pressure being dumped onto the needle valve from the unstable regulator, the working pressure then flipped on me and started to drop on its own, causing me to need to increase the pressure to get more CO2.

I continued this process from Friday night through Monday morning, maintaining a high CO2 saturation in the tank (as indicated by the yellow drop checker), and I still had a little CO2 left in the cylinder when I bled it dry after removing the regulator. However, from Saturday mid-morning, the regulator was unstable, registering 0 pressure the whole time while it dumped all the pressure to the needle valve.

You can call this event whatever you want, but it most certainly did happen and it fit exactly what I have always understood to be an EOTD. Further, it fits exactly my understanding of why an EOTD is an issue with single stage regulators and not dual stage regulators.

when a co2 tank is dry its 100% empty no gas, its befor its dry is where the issue can start when there is no more liquid left there starts to be a rise in output pressure hince rise and decay, there is NO dumping of gas. dumping of gas implys that it happends all at once which it does not it goes by the ammont that your allowing out to how fast you will see the rise in pressure.

with the rise in pressure with a low psi output the increase can go over 200% so if your near the limitations of what your fauna can handle is where people blame the increase of gas as a dump because they didnt pay attn to the rise in pressure, there are factors for how fast it shows tanksize, psi, usage etc etc so with a small tank with high output and low psi etc etc it might seem as it just dumped out but it follows a equation its not magic after all. here is a quick vid to show what im talking about u can see the rise and decay (rise in output decay in co2)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M08hPs-J3SM

id like to see what yours is doing it just seems out of the norm but it also depends on the regulator itself there not all build to the same specs. but the vid shows exactly what i was talking about rise/decay.

After operating well for several months, my system also had what I would call an EOTD. It exposed my inexperience with this equipment.
I had not concerns with hooking it all together and that is what let me down. I had no gasket seal between the tank and reg connection but as I put it together, it sealed for no leaks at first. Last week, it failed and all the gas came out of a ten pound bottle. My first note was during the day and there was a terrific amount of CO2 bubbles going into my tank. I would call it dumping! The red tiger lotus leaves were lifting off the water. But I have a CO controller and when there was enough CO, it shut the flow down with the solenoid. Not recognizing what was happening I went on without checking the tank pressure. The next day the CO failed to come on and the tank was totally empty.
Having used equipment, I don't yet know what reg, solenoid or needle valve I have but I feel the combo with the controller saved my fish. But then since I do know that there are things to learn, I have less than $20-30 in fish in that tank.

The missing seal costs 98 cents and I will get several when I refill the tank. Unfortunately the gas will cost $11.50. Lesson learned!

HypnoticAquatic said:

when a co2 tank is dry its 100% empty no gas, its befor its dry is where the issue can start when there is no more liquid left there starts to be a rise in output pressure hince rise and decay, there is NO dumping of gas. dumping of gas implys that it happends all at once which it does not it goes by the ammont that your allowing out to how fast you will see the rise in pressure.

with the rise in pressure with a low psi output the increase can go over 200% so if your near the limitations of what your fauna can handle is where people blame the increase of gas as a dump because they didnt pay attn to the rise in pressure, there are factors for how fast it shows tanksize, psi, usage etc etc so with a small tank with high output and low psi etc etc it might seem as it just dumped out but it follows a equation its not magic after all. here is a quick vid to show what im talking about u can see the rise and decay (rise in output decay in co2)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M08hPs-J3SM

id like to see what yours is doing it just seems out of the norm but it also depends on the regulator itself there not all build to the same specs. but the vid shows exactly what i was talking about rise/decay.

Click to expand...

That video does not show and EOTD. I'm talking about an event that takes place over the course of several days and you show me a video that lasts only a few seconds. It looks like someone simply disconnected the CO2 and bled out the pressure in that video. (The replaced working pressure gauge on his regulator also indicates he blew his original gauge by not knowing how to connect it properly; a common newbie mistake.)

It appears you do not understand what an EOTD is nor do you understand the root cause of an EOTD. Here is a very simple explanation that might help you: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators?p=43276#post43276

And, finally, the phrase, "end of tank dump," is merely a name given to the event and by no means indicates any true "dump" takes place. It's no different than the fact that a "planted tank" does not mean that the tank itself was planted (the substrate inside the tank was planted). Nomenclatures such as these are commonly used to simplify discussions and are never intended to be taken in such a literal manner. The technical term I've seen used by regulator manufacturers for the event is "droop." Of course, regulator manufacturers are not concerned with planted tanks so they only reference the event of the pressure within the regulator (droop) and not the effects on an aquarium (EOTD).

PlantedRich said:

After operating well for several months, my system also had what I would call an EOTD. It exposed my inexperience with this equipment.
I had not concerns with hooking it all together and that is what let me down. I had no gasket seal between the tank and reg connection but as I put it together, it sealed for no leaks at first. Last week, it failed and all the gas came out of a ten pound bottle. My first note was during the day and there was a terrific amount of CO2 bubbles going into my tank. I would call it dumping! The red tiger lotus leaves were lifting off the water. But I have a CO controller and when there was enough CO, it shut the flow down with the solenoid. Not recognizing what was happening I went on without checking the tank pressure. The next day the CO failed to come on and the tank was totally empty.
Having used equipment, I don't yet know what reg, solenoid or needle valve I have but I feel the combo with the controller saved my fish. But then since I do know that there are things to learn, I have less than $20-30 in fish in that tank.

The missing seal costs 98 cents and I will get several when I refill the tank. Unfortunately the gas will cost $11.50. Lesson learned!

Click to expand...

Yup, that was an EOTD. And you highlighted one of the many reasons why EOTDs are not always harmful to fauna: Even when the CO2 is "dumped" into the tank, it isn't all mixed in with the water. A good majority of it simply bubbles up to the surface and escapes the tank completely. Now if you had a tight lid over the tank, the small amount of air would then become saturated with CO2 so the oxygen/CO2 exchange at the water surface would have been effected because of the high level of CO2 in the air. But without a tight fitting lid, the CO2 just escapes into the room.

I also believe that a pH controller can help protect against an EOTD in the way you described. As the water does become saturated with CO2, the pH decreases, causing the pH controller to shut off the CO2 system. So while an increased amount of CO2 may be "dumped" into the tank, it's still not the full amount. However, this can also backfire. If a solenoid malfunctioned so that it was stuck open, it would continue to dose CO2 even after the pH controller shut it off. For people like me who have their CO2 running at a very high saturation rate in the tank, this could be a problem since I depend on the CO2 shutting off when the pH controller shuts it off. If it doesn't, then the malfunctioning solenoid could cause a CO2 overdose and gas the fish.

The truth is there are no guarantees either way, but, fortunately, these problems are rare occurrences. And even when they do occur, they only rarely result in gassing the fish. The fish will be gassed only when a number of events occur simultaneously. So even when an EOTD happens or a solenoid gets stuck open on a pH controlled system, it is still rare for the fish to be killed.

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:

What's the benefit of having a reactor vs. a diffuser?

Click to expand...

Reactor:

• DIYs are very inexpensive to build
• They are placed underneath the tank so they are not seen nor do they take up space inside the tank
• They are excellent in mixing the CO2 with the water which causes little waste of CO2 and no visual CO2 bubbles in the tank (no "soda" or "7-up" look)

Diffuser:

• Some people like seeing the CO2 bubbles inside the tank
• Offer a good visual of the CO2 being injected
• Small in size which is a good option for smaller tanks without tank cabinets

That's all I can think of at the moment. Personal preference also plays a role.

On the EOTD question, I just got some info from someone who I would consider an expert. Since my tank was empty I dropped by a welding supply to exchange it. While about it, I took the reg with me. He called it end of tank dump and explains it very clearly. Since I told him my position of not knowing much about CO2, he grabbed a couple books off the shelf to show me lots of details about regs. Single stage,single gauge to dual stage, dual gauge regs were all explained in about two minutes with pictures by a guy who knows the internals by first name.
He also explained why my reg did not have a plastic washer for a seal but now needs one. It has a built in seal but somebody has tried to remove it and now it is so scarred that it leaks without a seal. He explained that I will likely never need to change the seal but gave me four since I had asked about them.

If he calls it end of tank dump, that's what I'm going with. Nothing beats one-on-one personal service from a guy who knows his stuff. He also is the cheapest place in the Austin area for refills. Sweet to find the right guy.

first off i know what rise/decay is but people seem to think its dumping due to the fact its just flowing faster than normal, but the way eotd is used it makes people think that it dumps the remaining co2 when the psi drops. the video clearly shows this its only a few seconds for you to see as people dont really want to watch it for a day or more depending on your co2 usage like i already said, there are factors that all come into play with how fast or slow this goes which people seem do disregard thus thinking it dumped rather than looking at the cause and effect.

this issue seems to come around every 6 months and then there has to be the debat on what it is and why bla bla bla. even is the link u posted it clearly shows rise/decay he just words it as droop and supply pressure. a name like eotd should clearly represend what its in reference to but it doesnt this is why people need to call it what it actually is to help new people trying to understand this get a much better understanding of how it works.

to plantedrich idk how a o ring will stop your "dumping" issue as the only thing that the seal does is stop the co2 from leaking into the surrounding area it shouldnt have any effect to the co2 flow to the regulator, maybe i didnt understand what you were saying?

for the diffuser vs reactor there are +/- to each one

the diffuser comes in several different sized and shapes which can make fine bubbles or medium bubbles like a glass diffuser, a + if your psi rises it normally will just push out larger co2 bubbles that might be the difference of gassing your fish, the - you always have micro bubbles and depending on diffuser you might have to clean them often.

the reactor ill just make a list of + then - + out of the tank, no bubbles, 100% co2 dissolved
the - slower flow rate, rise in psi will catch all the co2 in the reactor an can cause gassing of fish if left unchecked,

Asked, and answered.

Q: Is C02 really this baffling?

A: (14 arguments later) Yes. Yes it is.




I've been thinking of writing a post with basically the same focus as this one. But while the OP said he's been searching for 6 hours... I think I've been searching for 6 months. Really it's probably only been 2 months that I've been seriously planning on going pressurized, though my tank's been running on DIY C02 (on and off) for about 2+ years.

I greatly appreciate Complexity's initial response. It does seem to stray away from the OP's stated goal of not doing DIY stuff, just wanting to buy it and be done with it. This is my frustration, too. I'd like to just go to the pressurized-C02-for-planted-aquariums store and buy a complete setup without spending a fortune. There doesn't seem to be that store, though, and buying a complete setup somewhere seems to cost a fortune.

I think Complexity's first response really did nail something important, though: if I could just get SOMETHING started, I think I'd be a lot better equipped to make further decisions about what needs upgraded and what doesn't.

I've more or less decided I'm just going to order a regulator/solenoid/needle valve combo, maybe aquatek, maybe milwaukee, maybe one of those things GLA sells, a 5 or 10 pound C02 canister, some proper tubing and a diffuser. Trouble is every time I sit down to order it I started searching on here (and elsewhere) for information and see another of these arguments and another of those threads with the beautiful looking DIY dual-stage regulators and read about how Aquatek regulators are made of cardboard and tin and why the hell would anybody waste 100 bucks on that when you could build your own for 45 bucks using some fishing line and the spring from a ballpoint pen.

/end rant (maybe)