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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Aqueon specs, look for "Iron EDTA"
Aqueon » Aquarium Plant Food | Products

In another post, I was given this video to watch in order to explain everything I needed to know about Iron for plant.

The man said that FE(iron)EDTA is "The worse chelated iron,...Toxic form....Only works well PH. 6.3 or lower, used as herbicide!! ...bad stuff, don't waste your money"

*** Fastforward to 5 minutes in to where he talks about different types of iron***
***fastforward to 5 minutes in where he talks about EDTA IRON***
So do I need to lower my PH in order to use this product? Is the product bad for using the EDTA form of the chelated Iron ?

Thanks.
 

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Yes, you need the FeEDDHA! Good catch!!!! I'll definitely look into the aqueon plant food. I've used it many times. Scary stuff. Big time thanks for sharing this.
Ok, I just checked, and even my very very expensive hydroponics Macros use EDTA. BUMMMED!

We've been hoodwinked. Spending money on something that will not work well at all at our pH. Who keeps a tank at 6.5pH? Very few Discus maybe.

I will be looking for the FeEDDHA now.

AND thanks to @jeffkrol, for the article explaining this mess.

'...Lucy...You got some splaining to do...'
 

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Yes, you need the FeEDDHA! Good catch!!!! I'll definitely look into the aqueon plant food. I've used it many times. Scary stuff. Big time thanks for sharing this.
Ok, I just checked, and even my very very expensive hydroponics Macros use EDTA. BUMMMED!

We've been hoodwinked. Spending money on something that will not work well at all at our pH. Who keeps a tank at 6.5pH? Very few Discus maybe.

I will be looking for the FeEDDHA now.

AND thanks to @jeffkrol, for the article explaining this mess.

'...Lucy...You got some splaining to do...'
You mentioned the article by jeffkrol in both of these posts (not sure why a 2nd one was started) What article?
 

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Ok so what about GLA Iron?

"Iron Chelate 11% DPTA (Diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid) Chelating Agent"

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 

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Ok so what about GLA Iron?

"Iron Chelate 11% DPTA (Diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid) Chelating Agent"

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
That is going to work for 7.5 pH and under. But from what I've read, there are many tanks running over 7.5pH. The FeEDDHA will handle the range from very low pH to as high as 9pH. I am surprised the mainstream industry doesn't have a line of Ferts with this chelated form. Or maybe I'm expecting too much? Planted tanks are probably not as common as I think they are, and there really isn't much call for these products.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yes, you need the FeEDDHA! Good catch!!!! I'll definitely look into the aqueon plant food. I've used it many times. Scary stuff. Big time thanks for sharing this.
Ok, I just checked, and even my very very expensive hydroponics Macros use EDTA. BUMMMED!

We've been hoodwinked. Spending money on something that will not work well at all at our pH. Who keeps a tank at 6.5pH? Very few Discus maybe.

I will be looking for the FeEDDHA now.

AND thanks to @jeffkrol, for the article explaining this mess.

'...Lucy...You got some splaining to do...'
Is anyone here a lawyer? I smell a class action!!!!!!

Anyone who purchased this product has been scammed and been purchasing a toxic poison which does not even work!!!!
 

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I use both the CSM+B with Fe EDTA and also add Fe DTPA for water with pH 7.6
I dose the CSM+B in low tech day after macro's, and dose the DTPA mid week.
I did not start dosing the DTPA until a month ago after I spoke with member on another forum about how long the EDTA remained available for plant's with hard water as opposed to DTPA.
Can't say I have noted any marked difference with the plant's but it gives me comfort that the DTPA is available longer.
I should think if the EDTA in CSM+B was toxic with submerged plant's and or fishes/invert's, that I and many other's who use it would have seen evidence some time ago.?
Used only CSM+B with EDTA for a few year's without issues or obvious Iron deficiencies that I could see.
We are talking trace mineral's no? don't take much traces for good growth ,hence the word..traces.
 

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Seachem Flourish Iron uses ferrous iron gluconate. From Wikipedia:

Iron(II) gluconate

Iron(II) gluconate, or ferrous gluconate, is a black compound often used as an iron supplement. It is the iron(II) salt of gluconic acid. It is marketed under brand names such as Fergon, Ferralet, and Simron.
.
Wikipedia
Chemical formula: C12H24FeO14
Average Molar mass: 448.16 g/mol
IUPAC ID: iron
May prevent: Iron-deficiency anemia
May treat: Hematologic complications of pregnancy


From Seachem's website:

Iron is immobile in plants. This means that plants cannot divert iron from older leaves to new ones. Therefore, deficiency symptoms appear first on new or young leaves. Because plants use iron to produce chlorophyll, a lack of iron results in chlorosis, or yellowing, of the younger leaves. Stems may also appear short and slender. If the deficiency is severe and prolonged, each new leaf emerges lighter in color than the preceding leaf.

When choosing an iron supplement, it is important to know the distinction between the two forms of iron. The iron will be in one of two oxidation states: ferrous having a +2 charge, or ferric having a +3 charge. Ferrous iron, the preferred iron form and is soluble in water at any pH. Ferric iron, however, is only soluble below a pH of around 5.5; but if the pH is higher than 5.5, which more than likely it will be in a planted aquarium, the ferric iron will become insoluble and precipitate, settling in the root zone. Once this occurs, foliar absorbtion becomes impossible.

To overcome this precipitation, competing products employ a chelate of ferric iron: iron-EDTA. While this does keep it soluble, it has a couple of drawbacks with respect to foliar uptake of iron. (1) Iron-EDTA bonding is very strong, thus very little of the iron will be available to the plants over a given time frame and (2) Physiological energy must be expended by the plant in order to extract the ferric iron from EDTA-iron and then convert (reduce) it to the ferrous form. Our approach is different in that we use a complex (not chelate) of ferrous iron in Flourish Iron™.

Flourish Iron™ is a highly concentrated (10,000 mg/L) ferrous iron gluconate supplement. Plants are able to much more easily derive a benefit from Flourish Iron™ because ferrous iron gluconate is already in the ferrous form so they do not expend energy reducing it. Despite what other manufacturers may intimate, gluconate is not harmful to plants or fish. In fact, ferrous gluconate is better suited to foliar feeding than is iron-EDTA owing to the relatively weaker iron-gluconate bonding vs. iron-EDTA bonding. In addition, ferrous gluconate has the added bonus of being a source of carbon.

Directions

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons) or as required to maintain about 0.10 mg/L iron. For smaller doses please note that each cap thread is about 1 mL. Use MultiTest®: Iron test kit to monitor iron concentrations. Due to rapid utilization, test within 30 minutes. Use as needed to combat signs of iron deficiency (usually seen in new growth) which include: chlorosis (yellowing) of tissue between veins and short and slender stems.

Guaranteed Analysis
Iron (Fe) 1%


Okay, so what is this stuff? It hasn't been included in the discussion.
 

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Is anyone here a lawyer? I smell a class action!!!!!!

Anyone who purchased this product has been scammed and been purchasing a toxic poison which does not even work!!!!
At the very least, these fertilizers should state 'For pH ...., Otherwise Ineffective...' I expect that the professionals, like Tom Barr and even many on this forum, keep tanks at a pH of 6.3 or lower, so these EDTA forms work fine for them. I read a number of threads from Tom Barr last night from 2005- 2011, where he mentions some of these issues, but does not address labeling the different types of iron chelates for different pH. Honestly, even if they did label it, you really don't know what you are getting in any of these aquarium plant fertilizers since they are not regulated. But I know agricultural fertilizers are regulated and tested: https://www.tfi.org/introduction-fertilizer/environmental-stewardship/fertilizer-regulations

I think from now on, based on that article, I will be buying agricultural quality products, and mixing my own ferts.
 

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So if I have read this correctly. Most of us out there pry should not use aqueon liquid plant food?
Not just Aqueon, but unless your tank pH is 6.3 or lower any feEDTA is worthless.
Seachem products are good for tanks with 7.5 pH or lower
For those with 7.6 or higher, you will have to make your own using FeEDDHA, or you are wasting your money because very little iron will be available, if at all, in the other forms.

The article explains it all. Good stuff!

Bump: Cherry Red Water? Well, I'm good with my Un-Planted Tanks. I just fertilize outside of my aquariums.

Found this, and thought it might be important to know:


Fe-EDDHA is the ultimate option, (if you don't care about the redness) but if you aren't running a pH above 7.5 (and you shouldn't be if you want the best plant growth) you can go cheaper with Fe-DTPA. Dr Rakocy uses Fe-DTPA according to the last paper I read from him.
I lifted this from Sylvia's blog:
"Fe-EDDHA, in contrast, is fully effective up to and even above pH 8. The problem is that quality Fe-EDDHA is expensive and it turns your water as red as cherry Kool-Aid.
In contrast Fe-DTPA is fully effective all the way up to a pH of 7.5 and it is just slightly more expensive than Fe-EDTA. This is why Dr. Rakcocy, and other experts recommend Fe-DTPA for aquaponics. And this is why we have switched to using Fe-DTPA in our AquaIron products."
Here's the post from Sylvia about the different forms of iron you can get and what pH ranges they are effective at:
http://theaquaponicsource.com/2013/08/15/iron-in-aquaponics/
Here are the Nate videos (he does a very good job):
 

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It was explained to me that the Fe EDTA in CSM+B may be available for plant's in hard water for 3 or 4 day's.
Fe DTPA that you can buy for hard water will be available for 6 to 7 day's.
If the EDTA and or DTPA was useless, then the thousand's of folk's that use it daily would note iron deficiencies and this does not appear to be so.
Also the member pointed out that those running high tech tank's dose the stuff lot more regularly than low tech tanks so whether it is available for 3 or 6 day's is of little concern.
If one person on one video is gonna turn the tide for you, well...
Plant's have way's of making the EDTA ,DTPA work or they would not thrive.
They just expend more energy than they maybe need to .
 

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It was explained to me that the Fe EDTA in CSM+B may be available for plant's in hard water for 3 or 4 day's.
Fe DTPA that you can buy for hard water will be available for 6 to 7 day's.
If the EDTA and or DTPA was useless, then the thousand's of folk's that use it daily would note iron deficiencies and this does not appear to be so.
Also the member pointed out that those running high tech tank's dose the stuff lot more regularly than low tech tanks so whether it is available for 3 or 6 day's is of little concern.
If one person on one video is gonna turn the tide for you, well...
Plant's have way's of making the EDTA ,DTPA work or they would not thrive.
They just expend more energy than they maybe need to .
The DTPA is fine for 7.5 pH and under. So all good for most planted tanks. We never said the DTPA was useless. The EDTA is the real problem. It is scary some of the things I am reading. Don't use it!
 

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I think we need to add Leaf Zone to that list of EDTA iron or Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid iron(III) sodium salt My eyes are tired from reading almost non-stop for 24hrs. The GLA forum and Tom Barr Report Forum has been very interesting. I think that since I've been using Leaf Zone and Aqueon EDTA iron for the past four years a couple of times a month, I can safely say it is not detrimental in very small amounts. The build up of salts (the chelated bond is sodium) over time in a substrate could be an issue. In fact, all chelated trace minerals can leave behind these molecules which can build up in any tank. All the more reason to make those water changes.

The biggest issue here for me, is the amount of iron actually available for most aquarium plants. There is no doubt that if you cannot keep a pH of 7.5 or less, you will have a harder time with plants unless you use the other types of chelated iron. EDTA will not get the job done. Even though iron is 'trace' mineral, without it in the right amounts other 'trace' minerals cannot be properly absorbed by the plant. Manganese included. You will see yellowing of leaves, and general downgrade of plants. Iron is essential to green, healthy leaves.

Here's some of my reading list:
Iron gluconate
How to make iron stock solution - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
Question on the composition of Plantex CSM + B - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
It was explained to me that the Fe EDTA in CSM+B may be available for plant's in hard water for 3 or 4 day's.
Fe DTPA that you can buy for hard water will be available for 6 to 7 day's.
If the EDTA and or DTPA was useless, then the thousand's of folk's that use it daily would note iron deficiencies and this does not appear to be so.
Also the member pointed out that those running high tech tank's dose the stuff lot more regularly than low tech tanks so whether it is available for 3 or 6 day's is of little concern.
If one person on one video is gonna turn the tide for you, well...
Plant's have way's of making the EDTA ,DTPA work or they would not thrive.
They just expend more energy than they maybe need to .
This guy on the video said on the bottom " PH.D" as in a doctor and expert in his field. It also appears that he runs some kind of hydroponics operation and this is the video that was recommended that I watch.

API has billions in the bank, why can't they afford the good stuff that actually works.

As for the people not complaining, its the Placebo effect. The same reason sake oil salesman got rich selling cure all tonics.

Look at all those people buying gimmicks and infomercial junk.

There was a bit Jay Leno use to have on his show in which they these guys would pitched a fake product to people and they would buy into it hook line and sinker no matter how silly or over the top absurd it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYIOr0YXdZo
 
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Look at all those people buying gimmicks and infomercial junk.

There was a bit Jay Leno use to have on his show in which they these guys would pitched a fake product to people and they would buy into it hook line and sinker no matter how silly or over the top absurd it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYIOr0YXdZo
I always 'assumed' that if it says it's for aquarium plants, it's been tested and found to be good for aquarium plants! So I bought into that pitch as well as many others. But if you look at the science, and actually research EDTA iron, you'll see how you are wasting money and time with this product. Keep your tanks at 7.5pH or less, and use the DTHA iron supplements. The FeEDDHA iron, though it is the best for aquariums at any pH, is reported to turn your tank cherry red for some time, (without harm to fish from what I've read) and I doubt most of us want that psychedelic look. I'm going to try it in a tank anyway once I buy some, and report back to this thread with pictures for the sake of experimentation. Luckily, I usually fertilize outside of my tanks anyway. So in the long run this cherry red color won't effect my tanks as much.
 
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