Help with Nutrient Deficiency: Leaves on Stems w/ holes

4606 Views 39 Replies 10 Participants Last post by plantbrain, Oct 18, 2007

Nbot

Discussion Starter · Oct 14, 2007

Hello, please help ID this deficiency:

On my ludwigia Repens, it grows fine, but all the bottom leaves turn from the dark red they started as, to green, to having brown holes/spots on them, and then falling off! So, I've got nice growth on the top, but only empty stems on the bottom..yuk...always replanting (and I can't do the trick to cut them down halfway to allow the stems to "bush" up, since there isn't any leaves left to photosynthesize)

On my Alternanthera reineckii, the leaves turn a sickly red/gold/green, with holes and brown spots on the leaves on the lower branches (older leaves).

On my Crypt Wendtii, the mature leaves often will "rot" or get holes in them, I thought this was just part of the plant deciding where to send its energy (to new growth instead), as the Crypts have nice new growth all the time...but perhaps the same nutrient deficiency affecting my two stems is affecting the crypt leaves?

oh, I'm doing the *standard* dry fert dosing and EI (weekly waterchanges) for my 55g, with low-med lighting, pressurized co2, medium+ plant load, complete specs in link in signature?:

50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/2Tsp-KN03 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-K2S04 3x a week
+/-10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week (CSM+B)

SHOULD I BE LOOKING TO CHANGE TO TMG INSTEAD OF CSM+B? It seems to be less problematic anyways, with the traces turning to fungus in the pre-mix solution?

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mistergreen

· #2 · Oct 14, 2007

I have the same problem.. I'll be interested to hear the replies.

Although, in my low tech/sun light tanks, things are fine. The plants grow slower but the lower leaves don't die off.

Naja002

· #3 · Oct 14, 2007

What is Your lighting? Still the 130w w/ 65w of that being actinic?

mrkookm

· #4 · Oct 14, 2007

Sounds to me like more K+ is needed

Nbot

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 14, 2007

What is Your lighting? Still the 130w w/ 65w of that being actinic?

Hello...yes, but it shouldn't be a problem of low-lighting (if that's what you are suggesting?), healthy red plants is do-able w/o high wpg....see link below...however the reineckii was in sort of a shaded spot, but the repens and the wendtii weren't so I don't think its a light issue...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/50456-zero-water-change-20-75-update-5.html#post472494

Naja002

· #6 · Oct 14, 2007

The actinics count for Zero--from what I understand. So, You are running ~1.18wpg.

That's why the bottom leaves are deteriorating.......

HTH

Nbot

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 14, 2007

I've seen several debates on the actinics, and the math says the light they deliver isn't worthless, I know that's the common theory though...The crypts show the same issue, and they don't need high-light, I don't buy into needing 4wpg for plant growth theory, its over-rated I think. You may be right but everything to me seems to indicate a nutrient deficiency...

Naja002

· #8 · Oct 14, 2007

Nbot said:
I don't buy into needing 4wpg for plant growth theory, its over-rated I think.

I agree.

Nbot said:
You may be right but everything to me seems to indicate a nutrient deficiency...

You are pumping a full EI load into a very low-light tank. If You put any more ferts into Your tank--Your substrate is going to start floating. The only possible way that You could have a "deficiency" is if You want to get into "ratios" and that's another debate. Think about how much ferts You are dumping in v. the amount of light.

Step back, look at Your specs and look at where the shortage is at....:thumbsup:

BiscuitSlayer

· #9 · Oct 15, 2007

Nbot said:
50%H20 change-weekly
+/-1/2Tsp-KN03 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-KH2P04 3x a week
+/-1/8Tsp-K2S04 3x a week
+/-10ml or 1/8Tsp-Trace 3x a week (CSM+B)

You are dosing as much KH2P04 and K2S04 as I am in my 29 GAL. I have some of the plants that you have, but I am not having the same problems as you. Another major difference is our lighting. I am running 65W over my tank and so are you (more or less). I see that you have the lights over the center of the tank. Is the melting happening on the sides or middle of the tank (in relationship to the lights)?

I stopped dosing KN03 because my fish load is pretty high. I haven't seen a difference since I did that. I would consider dosing more KH2P04 and see what happens. Especially if the plants you are having problems with are directly under the lights.

Edit:

Nbot said:
Hello...yes, but it shouldn't be a problem of low-lighting (if that's what you are suggesting?), healthy red plants is do-able w/o high wpg....see link below...however the reineckii was in sort of a shaded spot, but the repens and the wendtii weren't so I don't think its a light issue...

Sorry, just saw this tid bit of info. The fact of the matter is, this isn't really a low light tank. Yes it is low light if you factor in that the watts per gallon is low in a 55Gal, but the majority of the light is over the plants which are in the center of the tank. I would think this would be comparable to my tank. The dimentions are basically the same except for the length of the tanks. Yours is a total of 18 inches longer. The main difference is that my tank doesn't have dark spots since it is smaller. The light radiates over my entire substrate.

I am going to stick to my guns and say that the KH2P04 and possibly the K2S04 are not high enough. Based on what Plantbrain (Tom Barr) has said in algae related threads, these nutrients can be boosted with little or no noticeable effect with respect to algae.

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Nbot

Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 16, 2007

Thanks for the feedback...I'm going to increase the KH2P04 & K2S04 in my dosing...odd, I thought it was a micro deficiency...we'll try it for a few weeks and see how it goes. Could still be lighting, but I'm going to try the increased fert route for say, a month, and see the effects. If that fails, I'll swap out the Actinic possibly, or just go for lower light plants as I like having the actinic on 12 hours a day since the tank is in my office and I'm in there 12 hours a day easy....

Joetee

· #11 · Oct 16, 2007

Nbot,

I had problems with my Amazon swords leaves curling and becoming thin to the point of seeing through the leaves. I dose the standard dose for EI for a 29 gallon tank all dry and a little extra Iron. I just add all the daily ferts dry to a small cup and stir with a turkey baster with some tank water and pour it in the tank.

It was suggested here on The Planted Tank that I try dosing 1/2 tsp on water change days, some Grumpy's GH Booster for the extra Micro's, not that my water was soft but it has always been hard. Now they are growing real well. Not twisted and real green. It even shot out a new shoot and started new plantlets which it hasn't done for about a year. The symptom's I had was like a Calcium def. But I know that wasn't the case.

I hope this helps.

Joe

Nbot

Discussion Starter · #12 · Oct 16, 2007

Joe...really? GH Booster w/ hard water? I mean my gh is usually ~9 and kh ~15...not soft!, hard to imagine I need booster, I'm interested to hear more...

Joetee

· #13 · Oct 16, 2007

Nbot,

Dosing EI on a 55 gal tank, You should be ok dosing three times a week:
1/2 tsp KNO3
1/4 tsp K2S04
1/8 tsp KH2P04

and on off days:
1/4 tsp CSM+B
1/8 tsp extra Iron

Changing 50 % water once a week and adding 1 tsp Grumpy's GH Booster.

Joe

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Joetee

· #14 · Oct 16, 2007

Nbot,

Well that's what I thought because my water is hard. So I thought I would just try it and bam it seemed to have worked.

Joetee

· #15 · Oct 16, 2007

Nbot,

Rex Griggs - 5 grams of Grumpy's GH Booster adds to 10 gallons of water:

25 ppm K+
39 ppm CaC03 hardness equivalent (just over 2 dGH)
(breaks out as 26.6 ppm Ca as CaC03 and 12 ppm Mg as CaC03)
0.15 ppm Fe
0.07 ppm Mn

taekwondodo

· #16 · Oct 16, 2007

I believe you are overfertilizing - measure your NO3. I strongly believe the weird stuff you see on your A. Reneckii is related to nitrogen overkill.

mrkookm

· #17 · Oct 16, 2007

Joetee said:
Nbot,

Rex Griggs - 5 grams of Grumpy's GH Booster adds to 10 gallons of water:

25 ppm K+
39 ppm CaC03 hardness equivalent (just over 2 dGH)
(breaks out as 26.6 ppm Ca as CaC03 and 12 ppm Mg as CaC03)
0.15 ppm Fe
0.07 ppm Mn

Grumpy's GH Booster adds CaSO4 not CaCO3

Regarding how ppm's of each to raise 1gH I think it goes something like this: 7ppm Ca to raise GH by 1 & 4.4ppm of Mg to raise GH of water to 1. So at those ppm mentioned GH booster will add 3½ish GH from Ca & 2½'ish GH from Mg for a total=6dGH.

Joetee

· #18 · Oct 16, 2007

mrkookm said:
Grumpy's GH Booster adds CaSO4 not CaCO3

Regarding how ppm's of each to raise 1gH I think it goes something like this: 7ppm Ca to raise GH by 1 & 4.4ppm of Mg to raise GH of water to 1. So at those ppm mentioned GH booster will add 3½ish GH from Ca & 2½'ish GH from Mg for a total=6dGH.

Well according to Rex Grigg, what I quoted earlier is correct unless he made a type o which I don't think he did. He seems to know his stuff real well.
Maybe we should go to the source and ask.

REX,
Please chime in here.

mrkookm

· #19 · Oct 16, 2007

Joetee said:
Well according to Rex Grigg, what I quoted earlier is correct unless he made a type o which I don't think he did. He seems to know his stuff real well.
Maybe we should go to the source and ask.

REX,
Please chime in here.

I owned a bag of GH booster and when I ordered it It did not have any CaSO3, I'm sure of it because my 80% of my plant selection dop not take well to high KH. Maybe it's possibly something new...but i doubt it.

Regarding the calculation of the CA and MG I'm pretty sure it's accurate maybe off by a few but not by alot.

Joetee

· #20 · Oct 16, 2007

5 Grams to 10 gallons. I have the paper right here in front of me.

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