Help with fishless cycle....normal??

2687 Views 20 Replies 4 Participants Last post by Tiara1018, Oct 17, 2016

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · Sep 28, 2016

Hi everyone!
I could really use some help/opinions on my fishless cycle.

I've been cycling for about 2 weeks now, added Dr. Tim's one and only bateria on day one as well as 2ppm ammonia. Two days later ammonia dropped what looked like below 1ppm so I added another 2ppm as directions said. Well, that was one week ago and since then ammonia measurement has hovered between 1-2ppm without any decrease. Today ammonia is still at 2ish ppm nitrite is at 2ppm and nitrates are at 5ppm.

This does not seem to be going as textbook as the directions make it seem. Have I messed something up here?

I am also using co2 for the plants in the tank so pH is at 7.2 in the morning and 6.4 at night.

Any help would be much appreciated!!!

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

Smooch

· #2 · Sep 28, 2016

What does the directions for Dr.Tim's say to do? Asking as I've never used it before.

While it's great to have CO2 for plants, the bacteria that you are trying to grow in the name of cycling do not like a pH below 7. I'm not saying that it can't be done, it will take a lot longer than if it were 7 or above.

Immortal1

· #3 · Sep 28, 2016

Couple more questions for you;
1. When you started the fishless cycle, did you start by adding tap water to your tank then adding a de-chlorinator type product like Prime, etc.?
2. How did you determine the amount of ammonia to add to get to the 2.0ppm level? Or, did you add XX drops of ammonia until you got to a 2ppm reading?
3. Assuming you only have a few plants in the tank (i.e. less than 75% full of plants), could you run with out the cO2?

Smooch

· #4 · Sep 28, 2016

@Immortal1: I went to Dr.Tim's website to see what they said about fishless cycling in their FAQ section. I left confused. LOL

Yes, but there is no real reason to do fishless cycling with One & Only. However, if you choose to go that route you need to add ammonia to the water after dosing the One & Only because the bacteria need some source of ammonia to start growing a bigger population. Dose ammonia to an initial concentration of 2 to 4 ppm which should disappear quickly, with nitrate increasing a little then disappearing. Dose one or two more times with ammonia and after your test kits show no ammonia and nitrite, it is safe to start adding fish.

For starters I'm wondering if there is ceiling of how much ammonia can be used, much like Tetra Safe Start although they don't make any mention of it on the bottle.

Nitrates appear then disappear? Nope! I'm wondering if that part is a typo, but even then, if nitrites disappear while there is still ammonia being processed, that would mean the tank is not cycled.

I'm not sure how they come up with how many times a tank should be dosed either. It would be great if a person could only dose twice and be done with it, but that's not it works.

One & Only Nitrifying Bacteria FAQ's | DrTim's Aquatics

Immortal1

· #5 · Sep 28, 2016

While I can certainly understand wanting to shorten the fishless cycle, experience tells me waiting the full 3+ weeks will likely result in a much healthier bacteria colony.

theatermusic87

· #6 · Sep 28, 2016

The fact you have nitrates is a good sign, it means you're well on your way. Just be patient, do a water change and redose ammonia if it'll make you feel better.

You're cycled when your tank can take "x" ammonia usually 2-4ppm depending on stock to zero in 24 hours with no trace of nitrite

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #7 · Sep 28, 2016

Thanks a lot for your replies!!

I started by adding tap water and prime to dechlorinator. Now I'm wondering if that had some affect.
I used a calculation for 10% janitorial strength ammonia by 110 gallons that I found online. This equaled roughly 1.5 tsp of 20% ammonia, which test kit confirmed.

I could probably run without co2, although it is 65% or more planted. Plants are still adjusting to the move so trying to help them out as much as possible to rebound.

What I thought was unusual was that the ammonia isn't going down but yet the nitrites are spiking and nitrate is present....yet ammonia remains at 2ppm. Haven't dosed any ammonia in a week. The instructions basically say that every two to three days your ammonia should be below 1ppm and at which time you should redose with 2ppm (1.5 tsp in my case) ammonia.

I don't mind waiting for 3 weeks etc (two weeks in to the process now), but I'm just concerned that since my ammonia isn't going down at all for a week things aren't quite right. Maybe it is indeed caused from the low ph...when I was initially dialing in the co2 i brought the pH down to 6.0 mistakenly, perhaps that killed off the initial Dr Tim's colony.

Immortal1 said:
Couple more questions for you;
1. When you started the fishless cycle, did you start by adding tap water to your tank then adding a de-chlorinator type product like Prime, etc.?
2. How did you determine the amount of ammonia to add to get to the 2.0ppm level? Or, did you add XX drops of ammonia until you got to a 2ppm reading?
3. Assuming you only have a few plants in the tank (i.e. less than 75% full of plants), could you run with out the cO2?

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Smooch

· #8 · Sep 28, 2016

Prime binds ammonia, so the Dr.Tim's would have been starved as there wouldn't have been any free ammonia that it needs to feed on. If the ammonia is not dropping, it's not being processed. The cycle is: Ammonia ----> Nitrite -----> Nitrate. And since you haven't added any in a week, something doesn't make sense.

Do you have nitrites or nitrates in your tap water?

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #9 · Sep 29, 2016 (Edited)

Hi smooch,
I just tested the tap water. No nitrates or nitrates. I don't understand it. If the prime bonded the ammonia so that it was not available, would it still register on a test kit? I had read elsewhere that prime changes ammonia to a form that was still usable by bacteria....perhaps this was misinformation. Would you suggest I do a major water change with some other brand of dechlorinator and try redosing with dr. Tim's (I have another bottle). If so how much water shall I change and what is a good dechlorinator that does not bind ammonia/nitrite/nitrate?

Smooch said:
Prime binds ammonia, so the Dr.Tim's would have been starved as there wouldn't have been any free ammonia that it needs to feed on. If the ammonia is not dropping, it's not being processed. The cycle is: Ammonia ----> Nitrite -----> Nitrate. And since you haven't added any in a week, something doesn't make sense.

Do you have nitrites or nitrates in your tap water?

Smooch

· #10 · Sep 29, 2016

To treat your water, you can use Tetra Aqua Safe or something like it. Whatever you choose, it should not bind or lock up ammonia.

What test kit are you using? If it's API, they are known to be problematic. And no, you don't need to do a water change. If you want to do one to get rid of the Prime, that's okay, but if it has been longer than 72 hours since using it, I wouldn't bother.

Use the bottle of Dr.Tim's that you have along with a water conditioner that is not Prime. If the ammonia reading is still at 2 ppm, do not dose ammonia until it gets to around .50. If it is around the 1 ppm range, only add a few drops over the course of a couple of hours until you reach the 2 ppm range. Test every half hour or so between each small dose.

The problem with these products is that if your ammonia gets too high, it will kill the bacteria. On the other hand, if the cycle is starved of free ammonia, that kills the cycle. Within a week or so, you should be dosing your tank every few days. You tank needs to be tested daily during this process. It's a pain and a lot of testing, but it's works for the best in the end. It's easier to figure out if there is a problem with the cycle itself or if the test kit is spitting out bad results.

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Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #11 · Sep 29, 2016

Hi Smooch,
Thanks a lot for your help. I changed about 30% of the water and dechlorinator with tetra aqua safe plus, turned off co2 so ph is 7.2 and dosed the new bottle of Doctor tims. I slowly added ammonia to get to 2ppm again, so hopefully we will be back on the right track. I just hope my plants can handle the lack of co2...I think I already see some white hair algae from only one day?! Guess I should keep the lighting to a minimum. In a week or two when the tank is cycled will adding co2 back in kill off the newly formed colony? Not sure how that works.

Smooch said:
To treat your water, you can use Tetra Aqua Safe or something like it. Whatever you choose, it should not bind or lock up ammonia.

What test kit are you using? If it's API, they are known to be problematic. And no, you don't need to do a water change. If you want to do one to get rid of the Prime, that's okay, but if it has been longer than 72 hours since using it, I wouldn't bother.

Use the bottle of Dr.Tim's that you have along with a water conditioner that is not Prime. If the ammonia reading is still at 2 ppm, do not dose ammonia until it gets to around .50. If it is around the 1 ppm range, only add a few drops over the course of a couple of hours until you reach the 2 ppm range. Test every half hour or so between each small dose.

The problem with these products is that if your ammonia gets too high, it will kill the bacteria. On the other hand, if the cycle is starved of free ammonia, that kills the cycle. Within a week or so, you should be dosing your tank every few days. You tank needs to be tested daily during this process. It's a pain and a lot of testing, but it's works for the best in the end. It's easier to figure out if there is a problem with the cycle itself or if the test kit is spitting out bad results.

Smooch

· #12 · Sep 29, 2016

Tiara1018 said:
Hi Smooch,
Thanks a lot for your help. I changed about 30% of the water and dechlorinator with tetra aqua safe plus, turned off co2 so ph is 7.2 and dosed the new bottle of Doctor tims. I slowly added ammonia to get to 2ppm again, so hopefully we will be back on the right track. I just hope my plants can handle the lack of co2...I think I already see some white hair algae from only one day?! Guess I should keep the lighting to a minimum. In a week or two when the tank is cycled will adding co2 back in kill off the newly formed colony? Not sure how that works.

I don't know what your photo period has been while running CO2, but leaving lights on for about 6 hours should do the trick. If your plants are under high lights and you have the option to dim them, that would also be a good idea. They don't have to be in the dark, but a low light environment will help.

If you're seeing hair algae, it was likely there before. Algae doesn't spring out of nowhere overnight.

As for when your tank is fully cycled, there is no specific time frame, the cycle finishes when it finishes. Companies like to make it sound like cycling is a instant thing, but that's not true. Not only does your filter have to cycle, but the bacteria in your substrate also has to grow and develop. It is these bacteria that help break things down so your plants can use them as a food source. The bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite grow quickly while the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate are 'slow' growers. That is longest part of cycling.

The rule of the thumb is when your tank fully processes whatever amount you are feeding it ( in your case, that would be 2 ppm) in 24 hours and you have zero nitrites, your tank is considered cycled.

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Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #13 · Oct 1, 2016

Thanks a lot again, Smooch! I'm following your advice, and will let you know how this thing progresses! It's been 24 hours and ammonia remains at 2ppm which is to be expected so let's hope in the next couple days it begins to drop. Have a great night and thanks again for taking the time out of your day(s) to help and advise me!

Smooch

· #14 · Oct 1, 2016

Tiara1018 said:
Thanks a lot again, Smooch! I'm following your advice, and will let you know how this thing progresses! It's been 24 hours and ammonia remains at 2ppm which is to be expected so let's hope in the next couple days it begins to drop. Have a great night and thanks again for taking the time out of your day(s) to help and advise me!

Glad to help.

Here's a tip: When your cycle gets to the point where it processes the 2 ppm of ammonia around the 24 hour mark, you should see a clear increase of nitrates. If your test kit continues to tell you that you've only got 5 ppm or some other ridiculously low number, use a different test kit. Test strips are useless and can be just as bad as some test kits in terms of how inaccurate they are. You'll save yourself a lot of a aggravation and headaches if you use a good kit that works as it is supposed to.

Since you expressed concerns about algae, it can be removed manually. Do know though that all new tanks go through a ugly duckling phase. This phase can last 6 plus weeks. There is a lot going on as the tank gets itself established biologically, so things like diatom algae happens. It's ugly, but harmless. Some people are inclined to start grabbing for bottles of algaecides in a attempt to keep the ugly phase at bay. These products do nothing to help the tank cycle faster, so avoid that temptation. Dealing with the 'symptoms' is easier and you won't be dumping money down the drain. As your substrate starts to mature, your plants will be more effective at absorbing excess organics in the water column and things will settle unless there is something else causes the tank to go off kilter.

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Reactions: 1

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #15 · Oct 1, 2016

Great info, thanks! I do have the API master test kit, which would you recommend? Also,once the cycle is established am I able to get the co2 going again without killings off my newly established bacteria?

Smooch said:
Glad to help.

Here's a tip: When your cycle gets to the point where it processes the 2 ppm of ammonia around the 24 hour mark, you should see a clear increase of nitrates. If your test kit continues to tell you that you've only got 5 ppm or some other ridiculously low number, use a different test kit. Test strips are useless and can be just as bad as some test kits in terms of how inaccurate they are. You'll save yourself a lot of a aggravation and headaches if you use a good kit that works as it is supposed to.

Since you expressed concerns about algae, it can be removed manually. Do know though that all new tanks go through a ugly duckling phase. This phase can last 6 plus weeks. There is a lot going on as the tank gets itself established biologically, so things like diatom algae happens. It's ugly, but harmless. Some people are inclined to start grabbing for bottles of algaecides in a attempt to keep the ugly phase at bay. These products do nothing to help the tank cycle faster, so avoid that temptation. Dealing with the 'symptoms' is easier and you won't be dumping money down the drain. As your substrate starts to mature, your plants will be more effective at absorbing excess organics in the water column and things will settle unless there is something else causes the tank to go off kilter.

Smooch

· #16 · Oct 1, 2016

Tiara1018 said:
Great info, thanks! I do have the API master test kit, which would you recommend? Also,once the cycle is established am I able to get the co2 going again without killings off my newly established bacteria?

I use Seachem, but any of them will work. Another personal favorite of mine is Nutrafin, but I have a hard time getting them. Amazon sells them, but there is usually a wait time of 3-5 days before they are shipped.

Once your tank is cycled, it should be able to handle the pH fluctuations with no problem. By that time, your filter be cycled, but there will also be bacteria all over the tank. It will be on the substrate, on the plants, glass, ect...

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #17 · Oct 3, 2016

Just wanted to give you a quick update. Today nitrites were off the charts, with ammonia around 1ppm and nitrate between 5 and 10. I did a few 30-40% water changes throughout the day and brought the nitrites down to (hopefully) around 2ppm if my eyes are seeing the result correctly. I had read petting either ammonia or nitrite go over 5ppm would stall the cycle, so hopefully we are back on track there. Brown algae is rearing its ugly head, on rocks substrate etc. I want my co2!

I suppose half power for 6 hours a day will have be necessary for the coming week(s).

Smooch

· #18 · Oct 3, 2016

Tiara1018 said:
Just wanted to give you a quick update. Today nitrites were off the charts, with ammonia around 1ppm and nitrate between 5 and 10. I did a few 30-40% water changes throughout the day and brought the nitrites down to (hopefully) around 2ppm if my eyes are seeing the result correctly. I had read petting either ammonia or nitrite go over 5ppm would stall the cycle, so hopefully we are back on track there. Brown algae is rearing its ugly head, on rocks substrate etc. I want my co2! I suppose half power for 6 hours a day will have be necessary for the coming week(s).

I really wish the person that wrote those instructions would fix it. They are just as bad as the advice on the Dr.Tim's FAQ page.

You cannot have over 5 ppm ammonia in a fishless cycle unless you add 5 ppm of ammonia as there is nothing in the tank producing ammonia.

Either your test kit is acting up, or you're skewing your numbers with the water changes. You cannot have high nitrites, decreasing ammonia levels and next to nothing for nitrates.

If ammonia levels are coming down on their own, nitrites are processing the ammonia without any help from you, your cycle is doing what it is supposed to be doing. There is nothing fix...

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #19 · Oct 4, 2016

Thanks Smooch,
Today, 24 hrs after we have 0 ammonia and back up to 5+ ppm nitrItes again. NitrAtes have risen to between 10-20ppm. Shall I do another water change to lower nitrItes so not to stall the cycle while nitrAte bacteria is growing to keep up? After water change I would redose 1-2ppm ammonia.

Smooch said:
I really wish the person that wrote those instructions would fix it. They are just as bad as the advice on the Dr.Tim's FAQ page.

You cannot have over 5 ppm ammonia in a fishless cycle unless you add 5 ppm of ammonia as there is nothing in the tank producing ammonia.

Either your test kit is acting up, or you're skewing your numbers with the water changes. You cannot have high nitrites, decreasing ammonia levels and next to nothing for nitrates.

If ammonia levels are coming down on their own, nitrites are processing the ammonia without any help from you, your cycle is doing what it is supposed to be doing. There is nothing fix...

Tiara1018

Discussion Starter · #20 · Oct 13, 2016 (Edited)

Back again with a quick update. It is now 23 days into my cycle, which started with Dr. Tim's one and only nitrifying bacteria. I'm still not fully cycled &#55357;&#56853;

Now I can add 2ppm ammonia, it is converted into nitrite quickly(less than 24 hours), but nitrite to nitrAte takes an extra 24 hours....so basically I'm going from 2ppm ammonia to 0 ammonia 0 nitrite in 48 hours. This has gone on for a couple days now without shortening substantially. Still normal? Hoping this will resolve quickly since I have a shipment of discus arriving in a week and a half!

I have been redosing the 2ppm ammonia every time that both the ammonia and the nitrite read zero: so every 48 hours for the last couple days. NitrAte reading today is between 40-80...can't quite tell. Should I just keep doing what I'm doing or are any modifications suggested? Thank you &#55357;&#56842; !!!

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