HELP: have an ick outbreak!!
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Hi gaga43,
+1 for DaveK's comment about nox-ich. It is a very effective ich medication but clown loaches, elephant nose, and knife fish do not always react well with it. I would suggest something without malachite green as an active ingredient.
I would hands down recommend Kordon Ich Attack (the natural herb med. Kordon Rid Fungus has the same ingredients. Not to be confused with Rid Ich). Gentlist ich treatment I have come across. Used it on tanks with many clown loaches and not even a slight negative reaction.
86*F is when ich stops reproducing. 89*F when ich is when ich can't withstand the heat and dies, but there are some strains of ich that are even more heat tolerant, so it could require 90*F+. Fish, inverts, nor plants would be happy with that for very long. It's crucial to be sure the temperature is true (actually the required temperature and not a degree or two below due to inaccuracies from the heater thermostat or thermometers).
Same applies for the salt method, there are also strains of ich that are more salt tolerant.
The salt only, heat only, salt + heat combo methods can work though. No guarantees how/if your livestock and plants will tolerate them though.
I honestly still hands down much prefer and recommend Kordon Ich Attack over all methods I have seen (I've tried most of them too) to cure ich. It's very gentle on fish, and safe for plants and inverts.
Same applies for the salt method, there are also strains of ich that are more salt tolerant.
The salt only, heat only, salt + heat combo methods can work though. No guarantees how/if your livestock and plants will tolerate them though.
I honestly still hands down much prefer and recommend Kordon Ich Attack over all methods I have seen (I've tried most of them too) to cure ich. It's very gentle on fish, and safe for plants and inverts.
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86 degree's F with tablespoon of salt per 10 gal of water for ten day's minimum + extra aeration has worked for me with cory's,pleco's. Can't say I have tried it with loaches.
I would be tempted to try the Kordon ich Attack if it is indeed as Waterlife attest's.
All I ever used before was Quick cure which cannot hardly be found anymore in my neck of the wood's, and contained Formalin/Malachite green.
Used it for year's safely at half dose for sensitive fishes and shrimp's.
Would be keen to know what brought on the ich in established tank where loaches had been present for some time according to previous post's.
I think stress sometimes can be contributer along with possibly new fishes added recently and or deteriorating water quality.
Could be the Dempsey that still shares this tank with the loaches? is making the loaches nervous?
In any event, If condition's that brought the parasite are not improved on,then medicating is often futile effort, for the parasite or bacterial pathogen will often return over and over.
My two cent's.
I would be tempted to try the Kordon ich Attack if it is indeed as Waterlife attest's.
All I ever used before was Quick cure which cannot hardly be found anymore in my neck of the wood's, and contained Formalin/Malachite green.
Used it for year's safely at half dose for sensitive fishes and shrimp's.
Would be keen to know what brought on the ich in established tank where loaches had been present for some time according to previous post's.
I think stress sometimes can be contributer along with possibly new fishes added recently and or deteriorating water quality.
Could be the Dempsey that still shares this tank with the loaches? is making the loaches nervous?
In any event, If condition's that brought the parasite are not improved on,then medicating is often futile effort, for the parasite or bacterial pathogen will often return over and over.
My two cent's.
Ich cannot remain dormant, so if ich was present in a tank, it would have shown visible symptoms on fish within a couple weeks of introduction. If ich did not pop up within 2 weeks time upon adding new fish/possibly contaminated source, then there is no ich. Ich would not suddenly appear even if your water quality was extremely poor (other infections would though). So it would have had to been brought in from an infected source (contaminated fish, water, or other plants/objects/carriers from an infected water source).
I would use Seachem Paraguard over any Formalin (Formaldehyde) + Malachite Green combo (Kordon Rid Ich, Mardel QuICK Cure, etc). Paraguard is "kind of the same", it uses Malachite Green, but uses aldehyde, which is safer than formalin.
I have not yet personally used Paraguard for ich, but reports say it works and has, for the most part, been reported to not kill inverts or plants.
I have used the aforementioned Formalin/Malachite Green meds, and would never use them again after having found Kordon Ich Attack.
I also have tried each of the salt only, heat only, salt+heat methods and was not very pleased with the how stressed the fish would become and treatment progress was slower than I had hoped. Also had a lot of plants completely melt. Didn't have inverts at the time so I can't comment.
Just my honest experience and sincere opinions.
I would use Seachem Paraguard over any Formalin (Formaldehyde) + Malachite Green combo (Kordon Rid Ich, Mardel QuICK Cure, etc). Paraguard is "kind of the same", it uses Malachite Green, but uses aldehyde, which is safer than formalin.
I have not yet personally used Paraguard for ich, but reports say it works and has, for the most part, been reported to not kill inverts or plants.
I have used the aforementioned Formalin/Malachite Green meds, and would never use them again after having found Kordon Ich Attack.
I also have tried each of the salt only, heat only, salt+heat methods and was not very pleased with the how stressed the fish would become and treatment progress was slower than I had hoped. Also had a lot of plants completely melt. Didn't have inverts at the time so I can't comment.
Just my honest experience and sincere opinions.
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Salt normally suggested at one table spoon per five gal for heat/salt/extra aeration method, and I too have seen this amount damage lot's of plant's, and a bit too much for the cory's/pleco's.
Hence the suggested one table spoon per 10 gal as opposed to one tablesppon per five gal.
Formalin and malachite green was all that was readily available to me, so it is what I used for the near overnight relief that so many want to see.
I believe fishes can harbor all manner of parasites/bacterial pathogen's, and show little in the way of symptom's for some time in properly maintained tank's.
As water quality declines.fishes immune system becomes weaker and they are more susceptible to that which they may otherwise fight off with little effort.
I do doubt also, that particular ich parasite is always present though other parasites are.
Feeder fish /store bought for the Dempsey, would be one source along with any other recently introduced fish.
Fouled bunch of blood worm's would be another suspect for me.
I have had far less issues with intestinal parasites since I quit offering these nasty worm's some year's ago.
Not only are they collected from nasty area's,we assume the process to make them safe for our fishes is a sure bet.
The worm's could easily have been through freeze/thaw process several times before you or I get them.
Plant's and snail's while maybe not host's for some parasites could transport them to tank's where our fish DO make good host's.
Occur's to me I'm rambling,, So I shall take my leave to the coffee pot.
Do hope the ich is not too tough to eradicate, for I very much like the Dempsey's as well as all loaches.(cept maybe skunk loaches)
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Hence the suggested one table spoon per 10 gal as opposed to one tablesppon per five gal.
Formalin and malachite green was all that was readily available to me, so it is what I used for the near overnight relief that so many want to see.
I believe fishes can harbor all manner of parasites/bacterial pathogen's, and show little in the way of symptom's for some time in properly maintained tank's.
As water quality declines.fishes immune system becomes weaker and they are more susceptible to that which they may otherwise fight off with little effort.
I do doubt also, that particular ich parasite is always present though other parasites are.
Feeder fish /store bought for the Dempsey, would be one source along with any other recently introduced fish.
Fouled bunch of blood worm's would be another suspect for me.
I have had far less issues with intestinal parasites since I quit offering these nasty worm's some year's ago.
Not only are they collected from nasty area's,we assume the process to make them safe for our fishes is a sure bet.
The worm's could easily have been through freeze/thaw process several times before you or I get them.
Plant's and snail's while maybe not host's for some parasites could transport them to tank's where our fish DO make good host's.
Occur's to me I'm rambling,, So I shall take my leave to the coffee pot.
Do hope the ich is not too tough to eradicate, for I very much like the Dempsey's as well as all loaches.(cept maybe skunk loaches)
.
Haha, yeah I agree all points.
I was referring to ich not lying dormant in tanks, but for sure, other parasites, bacteria, etc. can lie dormant in tanks, being opportunistic, only infecting when there is a suitable (weakened-immune system) host/fish.
I was referring to ich not lying dormant in tanks, but for sure, other parasites, bacteria, etc. can lie dormant in tanks, being opportunistic, only infecting when there is a suitable (weakened-immune system) host/fish.
For the record I've never had a loach in any of many tanks. I just read:
"Clown loaches['...] natural water conditions are warm (high 70s to low 80s Fahrenheit) and fairly soft, with a pH from 6.5 to 7.5 (at times, the pH can be outside these values)." ( fishchannel.com/freshwater-aquariums/species-info/clown-loach-care-tips.aspx )
Based on the above info we can infer that a pH of 6 can be tolerated "at times". You don't mention what other fish (if any) are present, how many loaches you have, and if you'd be willing to move the loaches to another tank for treatment.
I maintain several tanks of peat treated rainwater with pH values <6. Ich, velvet, fin rot... none of them stand a chance in acidic water. I've taken Gourami home from LFS's with white spots growing on them, plunged them into my water and the Ich just seems to melt off.
There's not much of a profit margin in peat moss sales (last I looked it's not even available in LFS's), and rainwater, well no profit margin there either. Therefore we don't hear much about it as a treatment. But talk to an aquarist whose worked with Blackwater fish species, ask him/her about Ich. You'll get blank stares. Ich thrives in hard/alkaline water.
Now, 130g is a large tank. 130 gallons of rainwater is a lot of rain collected over weeks/months. If I wanted to save those loaches I'd pull them out and put them into a 20g Long. That's definitely doable. $20 for 20 gallons of distilled water and a few dollars more for a cubic foot of peat moss (which will last for months, you only need a few handfuls at a time) from a garden store... take photos of that Ich before you do this, so that you will remember what it looks like after you move your loaches.
1 more thing: Online forums (not necessarily this one) are chock full of arm chair experts who will tell you that rainwater is detrimental to fish. 1Rainwater 2is 3detrimental 4to 5fish. I just can't wrap my head around that, how absolutely absurd those 5 words are when used in 1 sentence.
They will talk about "remineralizing". Forgive their ignorance. They haven't read about peat/rainwater on their favorite website, and they can't buy it in their nearest LFS, so jaliberti must be an idiot.
Think outside the box, and best of luck with the loaches. Peace.
That's a interesting method I have not heard of people doing before to cure ich. Though I've never looked into it.
What are typical rainwater parameters? (GH, KH, pH) I remember seeing a little about it, I think it was said to have 0 dKH, which I think that is the reason why you want to use it (or another 0 dKH water like R/O or distilled), that way you can easily turn the water acidic with the peat moss (which I suspect it's the acidic water that ich wouldn't be able to tolerate, or is it the antimicrobial benefits that come from peat and other tannin sources?).
Makes sense on how ich would not survive in those water conditions, but I have no idea how well fish, inverts or plants would tolerate it. I'm not sure if there is potential of dangerous contaminants/chemicals in rainwater (guess it would depend where you live?). I don't know if there is any GH in rainwater or not, but if there isn't, that can be problematic, as fish do need certain levels of salts/minerals for proper osmostic balance (osmoregulation). Redox balance (Oxidation Reduction Potential) is also important, and plays a role in fish immunity.
Just a heads up though, if you did do that method, the main tank would still be contaminated with ich and you would need to let it sit without any fish/hosts until the ich dies (how long depends on temperature). But it's safe to say every fish in the main tank would be infected, so all fish would need to be treated. Plants and inverts can't get ich so they can stay in the main tank (so I guess it doesn't matter if plants and inverts would tolerate rainwater/blackwater conditions).
Interesting method though. I might try it out if I ever get a fish with ich again (assuming the particular fish species is tolerant of the acidic conditions).
I've seen you've worked with peat moss a lot jaliberti, where is a cheap source to buy it from? Any instructions on using X amount of peat moss per X amount of gallons lowers pH by X? Would assume it varies.
What are typical rainwater parameters? (GH, KH, pH) I remember seeing a little about it, I think it was said to have 0 dKH, which I think that is the reason why you want to use it (or another 0 dKH water like R/O or distilled), that way you can easily turn the water acidic with the peat moss (which I suspect it's the acidic water that ich wouldn't be able to tolerate, or is it the antimicrobial benefits that come from peat and other tannin sources?).
Makes sense on how ich would not survive in those water conditions, but I have no idea how well fish, inverts or plants would tolerate it. I'm not sure if there is potential of dangerous contaminants/chemicals in rainwater (guess it would depend where you live?). I don't know if there is any GH in rainwater or not, but if there isn't, that can be problematic, as fish do need certain levels of salts/minerals for proper osmostic balance (osmoregulation). Redox balance (Oxidation Reduction Potential) is also important, and plays a role in fish immunity.
Just a heads up though, if you did do that method, the main tank would still be contaminated with ich and you would need to let it sit without any fish/hosts until the ich dies (how long depends on temperature). But it's safe to say every fish in the main tank would be infected, so all fish would need to be treated. Plants and inverts can't get ich so they can stay in the main tank (so I guess it doesn't matter if plants and inverts would tolerate rainwater/blackwater conditions).
Interesting method though. I might try it out if I ever get a fish with ich again (assuming the particular fish species is tolerant of the acidic conditions).
I've seen you've worked with peat moss a lot jaliberti, where is a cheap source to buy it from? Any instructions on using X amount of peat moss per X amount of gallons lowers pH by X? Would assume it varies.
Any garden store is a cheap source for peat moss, just make sure no fertilizers have been added - easy to do since additives would be boldly advertised on the packaging.
Put a few handfuls of peat moss inside a nylon sock, the foot cut off a pair of panty hose works well. Tie off the sock and toss it in the water. While it's floating/sinking it's working. After a few days it will have become saturated and will have sunk. Remove it and replace the old peat with fresh peat.
Re X amount of peat moss per X amount of gallons lowers pH by X... one sock in a 3 gallon tank has my monitor reading <5.50 within 24hrs. For my 10g, 20g, and 40g I add more socks. The higher the fish/plant mass the quicker the pH will rise, and the more peat required.
Put a few handfuls of peat moss inside a nylon sock, the foot cut off a pair of panty hose works well. Tie off the sock and toss it in the water. While it's floating/sinking it's working. After a few days it will have become saturated and will have sunk. Remove it and replace the old peat with fresh peat.
Re X amount of peat moss per X amount of gallons lowers pH by X... one sock in a 3 gallon tank has my monitor reading <5.50 within 24hrs. For my 10g, 20g, and 40g I add more socks. The higher the fish/plant mass the quicker the pH will rise, and the more peat required.
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That's an interesting method.... I'm just trying the kill I twitch fire method.... My heater don't put out enough 😑 I need to break down and buy a better one.... I have always had problems with heaters not being sufficient but saying on the packaging they are good for 200g+..... I have 2 400w heaters right now and they couldn't even bring the temp past 77.... Threw in almost every heater I have had over the years (bunch of small ones) and overnight the temp only rose to 82.... Have one more to toss in and if it don't work I'll be heading to LFS for a monster wattage heater any suggestions on what some of you use in a tank my size?!?!
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