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Hagen CO2 questions

1849 Views 17 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  Myka
Hello all,

I just got my Hagen CO2 system in the mail the other day. The canister is producing plenty of CO2 from what I can tell, but I have some concerns about the effectiveness of the bubble diffuser. I've noticed that the bubbles are flying out of the tubing and racing up the ladder very quickly, but from what I have read the bubbles should travel up, shrink, and eventually diffuse before reaching the top. Mine are going up and popping on the water surface. Are my plants getting the benefits of the gas this way?

Anyone else have a similar problem or suggestion? Any feedback would be awesome, thanks.

- Hunter
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If gas bubbles are seen then it's not diffused 100%.

Seems like most people on here run their CO2 into a powerhead or (like I do) into my canister filters.

IME, I've not found the hagen system to be all that effective.
I use to own a ladder diffuser years ago and it worked pretty well, the bubbles shrank to very small bubbles. I got back into planted tanks recently and got it again and I noticed the bubbles barely shrank before they would hit the surface of the water. I dont know if it was the water temperature, back then it was 83* discus water and now its 75* plant only. But i hear more oxygen can disolve in cold water than warm so iono if that applies to most/all gases. long story short, after seeing it work for an hour and took it out and made a reactor.
I had the same system for a couple of months. Switch to a pressurized CO2 system. In the beginning the most of the bubbles would get trapped at the lower end of the ladder forming a large bubble and then escaped. Quite ineffective. What you could do is get a CO2 reactor with a powerhead and connect CO2 tubing to it. The CO2 will dissolved into tiny little bubbles and your plants will be happy.
The ladder doesnt work well at all UNTIL a slime coat appears on the ladder and actually slows the bubbles down a bit by adding resistance.
Some peoples tap water is just naturally resistant to disolving CO2
Care to elaborate?
Some peoples tap water is just naturally resistant to disolving CO2
Thanks for the input, everyone. I woke up this morning to see that the bubbles have slowed down significantly, and now there are actually multiple on the ladder at once. They are tiny before leaving the ladder, so I'm guessing that most of the gas is diffusing. I still do not like the guessing game that comes along with this ladder, though. I will look into getting a powerhead and reactor.
I have the Hagen ladder attached to DIY Co2. I find it effective in my 33, but I just recently purchased Red Sea's Co2 system that has the reactor feeding into a small venturi powerhead (included in the kit). Not sure how effective it is yet as I'm yet to see some bubbles still. We'll see how it goes.
I am hijacking this thread instead of starting the 601st on the Hagen system.

Anyways, I have it. The ladder is performing nicely, bubbles are really small when they are at the end, so far so good. The problem is that I only get about three bubbles a minute and there are only up to three bubbles on the ladder at the same time. This seems a little low. The system has been running for a couple of days, and production increased over the last day but is now stagnant. Might bad yeast be the problem? I am using one of those stupid little packs that come with the system...
The ladder doesn't work well at all UNTIL a slime coat appears on the ladder and actually slows the bubbles down a bit by adding resistance.
This is very true.

The ladder has to get "broken in" before it functions well. Then you will have about 90 to 95% of the CO2 dissolved into the water.

I have a ladder in a 10g aquarium connected to a 24 oz separator bottle and a 3 liter bottle of the yeast/sugar/baking soda/water mix.

There's a drop checker in the aquarium with a lab certified 4 dKH solution. It turns yellow when I start up a new mix and I run an airstone 24/7 until the mix slows a bit.
I am hijacking this thread instead of starting the 601st on the Hagen system.

Anyways, I have it. The ladder is performing nicely, bubbles are really small when they are at the end, so far so good. The problem is that I only get about three bubbles a minute and there are only up to three bubbles on the ladder at the same time. This seems a little low. The system has been running for a couple of days, and production increased over the last day but is now stagnant. Might bad yeast be the problem? I am using one of those stupid little packs that come with the system...
What kind of recipe are you using? Here's mine:

1/4 cup white sugar
1/4 tsp protein powder
1/4 tsp baking soda
1/4 tbsp molasses
2 cups RO/DI water with 0 tds heated in microwave for 40 seconds

I first started it up with 1/4 tsp of regular ole bread yeast. When I redo the mix I pour off the liquid, then I scoop out a tbsp or so of the yeast sludge on the bottom, rinse the container out, and put the yeast sludge back in, then add my recipe. I don't add any more "dry" yeast. Once I have refilled the canister I give it a real good shaking, and put it back on the tank. It starts making bubbles in about 20 minutes.

I don't have a drop checker yet, but I have noticed that the slower the production of the CO2 the more the bubbles dissipate on the ladder. I'm wondering if there is lots of CO2 in the water already that the bubbles don't dissipate as easily, and if there is hardly any CO2 in the water that the bubbles will dissipate more...?

I'm a newbie too, but I found this info out, and figured hey that sounds a bit different I'll try that out! :)

I just refilled about 2 hours ago and I'm almost getting 1 bps. I refill once a week just to keep the production more consistent.
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Your post is very good!

The CO2 deliviery slows because of several reasons that can slow CO2 production from the yeast.

I suggest that you look at using a pressurized CO2 system. You will not be disappointed.
Wow, one bubble per second is certainly impressive. Mine has picked it up a little and is now producing a bubble every ten seconds, and I have max. 5 bubbles on the ladder. I'm confident that production will increase a little more over time; needless to say, I will not buy any of those packs when they are finished. I might try your recipe; what's the protein good for?

Greetings to beautiful BC...I hope to spend a weekend there this summer.
Here's a crappy pic, but I counted 35 bubbles on the ladder. Big bubbles on the bottom, little bubbles on the top.



I don't know how long the mixture is good for. After about 10 days it slows to about 1 bubble per 6-7 seconds, so I change it out at 7 days, and it's still doing 1 bubble per 4-5 seconds.

I'm not sure what the protein is for, but I had a container of really crappy tasting stuff laying around that I bought when they were out of my usual stuff. You can buy a cheap container for like $15, and it will last "forever". Apparently soy powder works just as well and is cheaper, but I don't know.

I will try to find a link to where I got the recipe, but I can't remember right now, and can't find it again.
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Does this much CO2 affect your pH at all? I feel like mine dropped even with the relatively small amounts.
... I'm not sure what the protein is for, but I had a container of really crappy tasting stuff laying around that I bought when they were out of my usual stuff. You can buy a cheap container for like $15, and it will last "forever". Apparently soy powder works just as well and is cheaper, but I don't know.

I will try to find a link to where I got the recipe, but I can't remember right now, and can't find it again.
The protein recommendation comes from a Tara Nyberg PowerPoint presentation from the AGA2K3 convention. http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/Nyberg_yeast.ppt

Yeast Growth/metabolism
Yeast can either produce energy by fermentation or oxidative phosphorylation (ox/phos)
Yeast greatly prefer fermentation over ox/phos and will not start ox/phos until all the sugars are converted to ethanol.
Ethanol is a good source of energy and in the presence of oxygen yeast use it up as well.

How to live on the cheap --CO2
I have used yeast CO2 on tanks up to 180 gal. Also 75s, 65s etc.
2 gallons of yeast changed once every 3wks to month depending on the temperature works well. I don’t rotate the bottles either.
The key to long lasting cultures is allowing them to grow and be happy. Also a little basic knowledge of yeast growth helps.
Fermentation also produces 2 CO2 molecules per molecule of sugar-- as a by product. =)

Why is just sugar and water not ideal?
When you just add sugar and water to yeast, they are essentially starving to death.
However the enzymes for converting sugar to ethanol are still in the cell and will work for a limited amount of time.
Since the cells do not have what they need to make new enzymes as cells starve/run out of enzymes the culture produces less and less CO2.

Also, we add too much sugar.
Ethanol and sugar are increasingly toxic to yeast at greater than 10% concentrations.
Therefore 2cups (~500ml) of sugar in 2L of water (~25% sugar) is unhealthy for the yeast.
It is also a waste of sugar because 10% sugar will yield roughly 10% Ethanol at which point the yeast stop growing anyway.
Special strains of yeast, like champagne and wine yeast, have stronger cell walls that protect them from the Ethanol -- so they grow longer.

Happy yeast give you long, productive cultures.
The solution is to give yeast less sugar and also supply them with the nutrients they need to grow.
This will give you a long lived culture that produces a consistent amount of CO2, (they are not challenged by toxic conditions at the beginning and end)
Also your yeast mass at the end will be alive and well and able to quickly start growing again when you add more sugar.

The Recipe!
Improvise at will, but here is a good start:
Use 1 cup sugar per 2L H2O (tank water is great or dechlorinated tap -- chlorine, but not ammonia, kill yeast. ) (they like ammonia)
Add 1-2 tsp of a protein drink mix
(optional) Add 1 tsp of ammonium sulfate, otherwise use 1 T molasses. (or both)
1 tsp baking soda is also nice to keep the pH from crashing (they like it >pH3-4)
Leave yeast from previous mix in the bottom.

Benefits/conclusions
Growing yeast this way saves you time (less re-starting) and money on sugar and yeast.
The only real extra cost is the protein mix, but you can use really old/cheap stuff.
The key thing is that it has protein and vitamin/minerals, Anything that has “yeast extract” in it is perfect.
(Even non-fat powdered milk will do the trick, but it will smell funny)
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^ Ya, that's the one!! I couldn't find it again, thanks for posting! It still doesn't explain what the molasses and protein actually do. I mean it's obvious that they are food sources though.

My mix has settled down to 1 bubbles per 2 seconds this morning, and they are almost completely dissolved by the time they reach the top of the ladder.

Does this much CO2 affect your pH at all? I feel like mine dropped even with the relatively small amounts.
Not sure...the batteries are dead in my pH meter.
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