Guppy Sexual Education?

4611 Views 31 Replies 16 Participants Last post by BrynnaCC, Mar 6, 2014

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy

Discussion Starter · Mar 5, 2014

I've been wondering a few things...

1) Ever since my first guppies about 10 years ago, I've seen males chasing females, but I've never seen them actually penetrate or anything... Does the male just shoot sperm into the water column, or is there actual contact that I've never observed?

2) 2 years ago I read an article about guppy breeding behavior... I read that the females are fertile only a few days per month (like human females). Do they only accept sperm in that period of time, or throughout the month?

3) Do you think it is consensual or is it rape? :icon_neut

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

wicca27

· #2 · Mar 5, 2014

#1 it only takes a split second, you might catch the males gonopodium flip forward and then back. the job is done.

#2 female guppies can hold sperm packs. that is why if you want to work on creating a line you need to start with virgin females. it can take up to 6-8 months before she uses them all. she can also store sperm packest from several males so each drop could be different. another reason to remove the females as soon as you can tell them apart. so you can breed who you want together

#3 its nature so neither rape or consensual, just a fact of life

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 5, 2014

wicca27 said:
#1 it only takes a split second, you might catch the males gonopodium flip forward and then back. the job is done.

#2 female guppies can hold sperm packs. that is why if you want to work on creating a line you need to start with virgin females. it can take up to 6-8 months before she uses them all. she can also store sperm packest from several males so each drop could be different. another reason to remove the females as soon as you can tell them apart. so you can breed who you want together

#3 its nature so neither rape or consensual, just a fact of life

I see the gondopodium do that a ton... Just into the water I guess?

I have a fourth question... I heard that guppies, when not selectively bred, will evolve back to their wild form (over many many years), so they'd get smaller fins, less vibrant colors, ect... Would that be an issue if I just let an established line breed randomly? It's 1 male and 2 female albino red lace snakeskin deltas from an established strain where every fish is 99% identical.

Solcielo lawrencia

· #4 · Mar 5, 2014

The gonopodium penetrates into the female's... orifice? They don't have vaginas. If you look at the g-pod, you'll see there is a barb. That helps hook the g-pod into the orifice while sperm is injected because the female can swim away before the deed is done. That's how the barb evolved.

As for evolving back, that really depends on what genes are still present. Some morphological issues, e.g. those bulgy eyes and dopey-looking head, will be there to stay. This is the main reason I hate fancy guppies; they were selected for their finnage but breeders ignored the head shape, kind of like breeding humans for large breasts but her face is butt hurt.

Kat12

· #5 · Mar 5, 2014

A lot of the traits that fancy guppies show are recessive traits that were bred for etc. So if you are breeding a fish displaying a recessive trait, to a fish displaying the same trait, the genes for that trait to show will be passed on and you will continue to get that trait. Reverting back to wild type occurs when different types of fancy guppies are bred randomly together allowing the recessive traits to become hidden again.

JJVanier

· #6 · Mar 5, 2014

I feel dirty from reading this thread.

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 5, 2014

Solcielo lawrencia said:
The gonopodium penetrates into the female's... orifice? They don't have vaginas. If you look at the g-pod, you'll see there is a barb. That helps hook the g-pod into the orifice while sperm is injected because the female can swim away before the deed is done. That's how the barb evolved.

As for evolving back, that really depends on what genes are still present. Some morphological issues, e.g. those bulgy eyes and dopey-looking head, will be there to stay. This is the main reason I hate fancy guppies; they were selected for their finnage but breeders ignored the head shape, kind of like breeding humans for large breasts but her face is butt hurt.

Oh, that makes more sense.

And good, I'll just keep that line of guppies pure. If I see any anomalies (larger fins, brighter colors, better patterns) I'll figure out a way to separate those and breed them.

This strain just sucks so much because all of the females look exactly the same and have quite dull fins, while the males have red lacey fins. Usually the females look something like the males which would make them easier to selectively breed, but the females have electric blue dorsal fins which doesn't even make sense lol.

Is there a general rule for selectively breeding guppies since the females are duller and don't display male traits? Is the idea to just pick the best male and best female and breed them?

EddyBearr

· #8 · Mar 5, 2014

1:

(same genus, same mechanics, can interbreed)

2: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130612133403.htm
...female guppies are only fertile...for only two or three days out of each 25-30-day reproductive cycle...

3: I'd call it consensual, because males will show off how grandiose their gonopodium and fins are before attempting. I don't think it matters though. Lol.

gt turbo

· #9 · Mar 5, 2014

This post is hilarious. I'm still laughing at "butt-hurt".

In terms of selectively breeding the guppies, I suggest getting the male you prefer and look for the biggest, most colourful female with the best shaped body and finnage.

Art by Stef*

· #10 · Mar 5, 2014

Don't feel bad Guppy5.
I have been breeding guppies for years, and unless there is another gondopodium on its forehead-I don't see the actual mating either

-Stef*

Solcielo lawrencia

· #11 · Mar 5, 2014

GuppyGuppyGuppyGuppyGuppy said:
This strain just sucks so much because all of the females look exactly the same and have quite dull fins, while the males have red lacey fins. Usually the females look something like the males which would make them easier to selectively breed, but the females have electric blue dorsal fins which doesn't even make sense lol.

Is there a general rule for selectively breeding guppies since the females are duller and don't display male traits? Is the idea to just pick the best male and best female and breed them?

Females are dull because breeders choose only males with the desired traits to breed. The females are used only to carry babies. This isn't true of all, though. The females I have are cobra-tail tuxedo females, half black with yellow cobra tails. I got this color pattern by breeding a tuxedo male with a cobra-tail female. The tuxedo trait was passed onto nearly all the F1 females. The F1 males came out as mutts, but 50% of the F2 males and females came out with the same tuxedo trait.

You'll have to know Mendelian genetics if you want to estimate the potential traits from a brood.

As for your albino strain, it's very likely that they've been line bred for many generations already so they are genetically weak. I'd out-cross them with a fish with more desirable traits. Their F1 offspring may come out like mutts but the F2 may come out looking better. You'll have to see. It should also be noted that the moment F1's come out as mutts, most breeders assume that they no longer have desirable traits so they don't go on for an F2 generation when that's exactly what they should be doing.

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Solcielo lawrencia

· #12 · Mar 5, 2014

EddyBearr said:
3: I'd call it consensual, because males will show off how grandiose their gonopodium and fins are before attempting. I don't think it matters though. Lol.

They do rape.

Kat12

· #13 · Mar 5, 2014

rape is a human term. It really doesn't apply to the animal world.

Art by Stef*

· #14 · Mar 5, 2014

Kat12 said:
rape is a human term. It really doesn't apply to the animal world.

Bottle nosed dolphins do indeed kidnap and rape females of other pods.
They have also been known to try to rape their human handlers/trainers in captivity.
-Stef*

gt turbo

· #15 · Mar 5, 2014

Solcielo lawrencia said:
Females are dull because breeders choose only males with the desired traits to breed. The females are used only to carry babies. This isn't true of all, though. The females I have are cobra-tail tuxedo females, half black with yellow cobra tails. I got this color pattern by breeding a tuxedo male with a cobra-tail female. The tuxedo trait was passed onto nearly all the F1 females. The F1 males came out as mutts, but 50% of the F2 males and females came out with the same tuxedo trait.

You'll have to know Mendelian genetics if you want to estimate the potential traits from a brood.

As for your albino strain, it's very likely that they've been line bred for many generations already so they are genetically weak. I'd out-cross them with a fish with more desirable traits. Their F1 offspring may come out like mutts but the F2 may come out looking better. You'll have to see. It should also be noted that the moment F1's come out as mutts, most breeders assume that they no longer have desirable traits so they don't go on for an F2 generation when that's exactly what they should be doing.

I would hazard to say that you do not need to know Mendelian Genetics to have a good working knowledge. Charles Clapsaddle just wrote quite an interesting piece on understanding genetic results using three very basic principles in the February issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. It makes for quite informative reading.

Not sure on the rape though. I mean although it's a human term, it may be apt for males who chase down females constantly and then quickly impregnate them. I couldn't very well note that as consensual but it's still a lot better than the bed bugs, where the male just stabs the female in the abdomen to impregnate her. lolol

OVT

· #16 · Mar 5, 2014

Humans make everything complicated ... and expensive. We should revert back to basics.

v3

Solcielo lawrencia

· #17 · Mar 5, 2014

Kat12 said:
rape is a human term. It really doesn't apply to the animal world.

Chimpanzees and bonobos rape. They also prostitute themselves.

Art by Stef*

· #18 · Mar 5, 2014

I firmly believe my guppies get raped, but find it only a mild annoyance, and don't need years of psychological therapy sessions.
I just don't understand why the males go after the obviously pregnant ones and ignore the virgins. I know they see them as fertile, but still...there are the willing about.

-Stef*

jrill

· #19 · Mar 5, 2014

Am I the only one who hates guppies. When I started in fishkeeping only old woman with parakeets raised guppies. Now I am older than they were then.

Solcielo lawrencia

· #20 · Mar 5, 2014

Art by Stef* said:
I firmly believe my guppies get raped, but find it only a mild annoyance, and don't need years of psychological therapy sessions.
I just don't understand why the males go after the obviously pregnant ones and ignore the virgins. I know they see them as fertile, but still...there are the willing about.

-Stef*

Because the males go after the biggest females they can court since they'll be the ones with the largest brood. They can't tell which female is a virgin or not, just like human males can't tell if another human female is a virgin.

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