[ponyo]

My question is, could you set up a tank with plants, heater, light, filter. No fish. Let it sit for a few weeks and then cycle it after a few weeks of it just sitting there?

Kind of strange question I know but here's the deal. I started setting up a riparium around christmas time. It's taken me a long time because I take a long time to make decisions and I had to build the stand etc. I have a 29 gal low tech planted tank I'm rather disappointed with so I was trying to do everything better this go-round.

But then just as I finally have everything ready to put it all together, as luck would have it, I landed a job (I graduated from grad school last sept and had been job hunting). So now I am working about 1.5 hours away from home all week. I have tentatively found an apartment down by my work which won't be ready until mid-march.

The problem is I have my riparium plants in a plastic tub in a sunny spot. They seem to be doing alright although one guy lost some leaves. Still I worry about them. And the crypts I got to plant submersed... well the two bigger ones are still in their little plastic pots sitting in my 29 gal tank and their now growing roots out of the pots. And the two little ones didn't come in pots and I didn't want to plant them just to have to replant them so they are floating.

I would not be able to do all the work required for a fishless cycle so either I can just leave things as they are or I could set up the tank with a filter and heater and all the plants and the light, but not try to do a fishless cycle yet. Then when I move into the apartment and I move the tank I could cycle it then but that wouldn't be for a few weeks. So what do you think is my best course of action?

 

[Diana]

The nitrogen cycle is a way to grow nitrifying bacteria so there is a good sized colony before you add livestock to the tank. There are a couple of ways to get around having to do the full fishless cycle.

1) A thriving planted tank, with plants so dense you cannot see the back of the tank will handle a reasonable fish load even if there has been no effort at doing a fishless cycle. The plants themselves are the bio filter. So get the tank set up and planted. Spend some time working with the plants, finding out the optimum fertilizer and carbon dosing for fastest growth. When you add the fish do not dose any nitrogen and monitor conditions.

2) Set up and run the tank just like you had fish. Feed the virtual fish with the highest protein fish food you can find. This will rot in the tank providing the ammonia to get a colony of bacteria going.

3) Add a bottle of bacteria that contain Nitrospira species of bacteria right before adding the fish.

Make sure the aquarium water has the right water chemistry to grow the bacteria as quickly as possible. I would set up a hard water tank, plant it, and feed the bacteria for as long as it took until the fish arrived. If you have a month, that is great. Ought to get a good population of bacteria established. If you have less time than that, but the plants are thriving, that is fine, too. The plants will handle the nitrogen. Just do not overstock right away.

Here is the fishless cycle which includes the optimum water parameters for the bacteria, and a few more hints about how to grow the colony the fastest.

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details.

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium.

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks.

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water.
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine.
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine.
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated.
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful.
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation.
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort.
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required.
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different.

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else.
At the time this was written the right species could be found in:
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others.
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast.

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though.
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below.

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm.

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm.

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours.

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high!
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better.
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen.
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well.
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations.

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.

 

[ponyo]

The problem is I can't test once a day. I stay with a friend a few nights/week to give me a break on the commute. So cycling right now would be hard.

I do have a new question though. I was planning to set this tank up using RO water. I have funky well water that does funky things. And then also when I move I don't know what the water will be like out of the tap. My tap water is a pH of 6.0 and soft. But in my planted tank it is 7.6 and hard(er). If you put it in a bucket it also goes up in pH. I am guessing this is because it perhaps has a lot of CO2 in it. I also have a flourishing algae population in my 29gal tank. I scrape it off every so often.

But should I not use the RO for cycling? I was going to add Seachem equilibrium to balance the minerals. It is not going to be heavily planted--the bottom part anyway, it will have a total of 4 plants (although I'd like to get a few more of the small crypts) right now but I do have a good number of riparium plants for it.

 

[lochaber]

hmm... trying to do a fishless cycle just a couple days a week sounds like it could be problematic.

Might be able to try the method some people use where they chuck in some raw shrimp - I imagine that takes some time to breakdown, and probably continues for a little while.

I don't know how long the beneficial bacteria can remain dormant before there is a significant drop in their ability to process the ammonia, but I've skipped at least a day or two without any noticeable setback in cycling. Might be able to just start the fishless cylce when you are there, ignore it while you are gone, and try some more when you return. I don't know how well that would work, and at best, I imagine it would be a very slow cycling, since the bacterial populations would really only grow while you are feeding them.

 

[Lynrem]

Not as good as daily testing and adjusting but you could put a "shrimp cocktail" shrimp in the tank while your gone. It will release ammonia as it rots.

But personally I'd wait until after moving to do anything.

 

[ponyo]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm considering trying to do the cycle--my mom offered to test on the days I'm not home. But she already is doing a lot of work for me while I'm not here--taking care of my cats and my horse. So I hate to ask her to do one more thing. When I move the cats and horse are going with me so this is just temporary.

It looks like my apartment won't be ready until the 22nd. UGH. I'm so sick of commuting!

If I have plants thought, it isn't a good idea to have the ammonia up that high. But no way can I test twice a day to keep it at 1 ppm. What do you guys do when you cycle with plants?

 

[Sotty]

Consider the shrimp. It is reliable and easy. It has become my favored method.

 

[lochaber]

I've done two cycles with plants in, the first I did dosing ammonia up to 5ppm, the second up to 3ppm.

I don't think it really harmed the plants, and I both times I had a good deal of floaters (Amazon frogbit).

Although, I didn't really notice much in the way of growth until a couple months after set up, I don't know if this was related to high ammonia levels or not.

I also tried some of the test strips during the cycling, wasn't terribly impressed with them, but they were quick and easy, and on the days that I did both tests (liquid and strips), the strips seemed to be in the same general range as the liquid. Might be worth considering to make things easier for your mother (or anyone else) to help you with the cycling.

I think it would be worth trying a low-ppm cycle, at worst, you'll have to do a water change every week, and won't get anywhere. But, most likely, you'll get at least a head-start on your cycle, if not actually complete most of it.

 

[Smeagol]

.....C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.

When doing a fishless cycle with live plants already in the tank and dosing ammonia to 1ppm, how do you know if you're growing any bacteria at all or if it's just the plants that are consuming the ammonia?

 

[Guyver]

Consider the shrimp. It is reliable and easy. It has become my favored method.

+1

It's how I cycle my tank as well, combined with a bottle of Tetra SafeStart a few days after adding the raw shrimp in. Keep it in a mesh filter bag or a bag of cheese cloth, otherwise when it decomposes it might fall apart in your tank.

 

[Diana]

When doing a fishless cycle with live plants already in the tank and dosing ammonia to 1ppm, how do you know if you're growing any bacteria at all or if it's just the plants that are consuming the ammonia?

When I did a fishless cycle on a large tank with lots of Anubias (Not fast growing) and a small population of other plants that are faster growing (Vals, Hornwort, Myrio) I found this pattern:

First few days: No change in ammonia (started at 5 ppm). Would have been dropping faster if the plants were using a significant amount
Next few days: Ammonia started dropping. I allowed it to get to 3 ppm, then tested and added it as needed. The rate of drop and the amount and frequency that I added it matched a timeline for the fishless cycle in a non-planted tank.
Once I overdosed, and it was back up to 5 ppm. Anubias got burned.
Water change.
In the meantime the substrate (Safe-T-Sorb) was removing carbonates.
So the bacteria slowed down (ammonia dropped slower, then stayed the same). If the plants were removing enough ammonia to make a difference it sure would have showed up here, when the bacteria stalled.
So I added baking soda.
Bacteria got more active, ammonia started disappearing almost overnight. This fast response when I met the needs of the bacteria again tells me that most or all the ammonia removal is due to bacteria, not plants.
Started monitoring NO2. It never got high enough to need a water change. This suggests that a) I was adding ammonia slowly enough that the Nitrospira was able to keep up with the nitrite production OR b) Plants were removing some ammonia. Maybe just enough so it did not get turned into NO2.
Kept an eye on the carbonates. Had to dose every 2-3 days. I was not aiming for a particular number, just a positive test.
Total time of this cycle was a few days over 3 weeks, just what it should have taken, with no plants in the tank.

I also was using strips and API liquid tests and found them similar enough for my purposes when I did both. Most of the time I just used the strips and went by that.

In answer to several other questions:
The bacteria do not enter a resting stage, but they do not die overnight, either. You can cycle with shrimp (decomposing over several days, to feed the bacteria when you are not home).
You can cycle with ammonia, but since the plants may or may not be OK, the low dose at infrequent intervals will make the cycle drag out for a long time.

I think in this case the best thing is to use the shrimp.
As you say, your mother already has enough to do. Don't ask her to babysit your aquarium bacteria, too.

 

[lochaber]

When doing a fishless cycle with live plants already in the tank and dosing ammonia to 1ppm, how do you know if you're growing any bacteria at all or if it's just the plants that are consuming the ammonia?

If you are starting to see nitrites or nitrates, that means the bacteria are processing the ammonia. If you are getting 0ppm ammonia without any nitrites or nitrates, I imagine it might be worth upping the initial dosing a bit.