Fish and pH requirements

840 Views 9 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Jeff B., Oct 18, 2016

Jeff B.

Discussion Starter · Oct 14, 2016

OK, I've a general interest question about fish and their particular pH requirements. I'm preparing to restock a recently (heavily) replanted 55 gal. tank, and am genuinely puzzled about the water parameters listed by online suppliers. I get that these might be rules of thumb, but how accurate are they in general?

Several examples: because of a whole house water softener and iron treatment system, we have odd water parameters- pH consistently 8.4, GH 4 (German units, sorry) and KH 11-12.

I didn't even learn about GH and KH until I started research to restart the tank, and realized that years ago before the internet I struggled mightily with pH, and probably hurt more fish than I helped trying to reduce it w. liquid additives which many pet stores pushed.

At that time among other things we stocked Corys (julii, I think) and Silver Hatchets. One of each has survived the intervening years of neglect. Some online retailers don't list water parameters (warning sign?), but those that do list the high range for some Cory species at c.7.6-7.8, and Hatchets at 7.0.

I'm sure this is all extremely complicated, but were these little survivors just outliers that somehow managed to adapt? I assume that some fish might be more adaptable than others- are there any good bets? Or is acclimatization even to a somewhat extreme environment something that most fish can do?

Of course the fish we're most interested in are mostly South American soft-water types like the hatchets, tetras (esp. tetras), Corys, and Rams...

I don't want to kill fish needlessly (and waste money), so any advice would be immensely appreciated.

Bump: Sorry for the verbose wandering. My questions in summary:
* Are the water parameters listed by retailers for fish reliable?
* Is there a reliable, unbiased source online for species requirements?
* if the requirements are accurate, are many fish adaptable to parameters outside their listed "comfort zones", or is this more likely to be random, in individual fish?
* Are there many species more adaptable than others?

Thanks again (and, for the record, I'm not at all interested in the African cichlids which might be happy with my odd water, so...)

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Opare

· #2 · Oct 15, 2016

Seriouslyfish is a pretty good database for fish research, but I think it's been down for a few days.
I tend to feel fish can be quite adaptable, especially the species which have been domesticated more heavily.

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PlantedRich

· #3 · Oct 15, 2016

The fish are far more adaptable than many of the written articles proclaim. I find the fish are very easy to adapt if it is done right. One of the big ones for me is to let them adapt in the timeframe they need. Never quickly if they are showing sings of stress. Also the big hoopla about PH is one that I now find far less important than GH/KH. The three are all related so it pays to watch them all but working with my fish , I see them struggle far less with PH than GH changes.
I feel the amount it bothers is more aligned with the fish type rather than each fish. Some vary when the fish are different size, condition, etc. but for general rule, I find the type matters most.
Part of this thinking is based on the fish I keep and breed. I generally breed two major groups of African cichlid, mbuna (rock lovers?) and open water Protomelas and they behave somewhat differently. While I keep them in 7.8PH and very hard alkaline (21Grain/300PPM+) they are fine with running the PH down to just above 6.8 before they show stress. The open water types begin to threaten dying quite a lot sooner than the mbuna. But then I also find I can catch a breeding female, holding fry in her mouth and move them to another tank without CO2 so she can spit the fry. With mbuna, I did this frequently without problem for the female or fry except that the female acted a bit groggy when moved back to the low PH. When I moved a Protomelas in the same way, the female was okay going to and back but the fry all died!
However, I have to say that I find cichlids much easier to deal with as they are generally bigger and stronger fish so they will give you far more room to see they are struggling rather than just showing up dead.
For overall ease of keeping fish, I would seriously look at finding a way to use the raw water before the softener if the iron content would allow it. Life is much easier if we don't try to defeat nature. It has a way of making us pay !

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Jeff B.

Discussion Starter · #4 · Oct 15, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

Thanks. But bright orange water, so much iron that the (semi-biological) filter we use for the whole house has to be cleaned every 3-4 weeks of an inch of more of thick, claylike iron deposits. We tried it in the swimming pool once, and let's just say it wasn't pretty.

I've had root growth on almost all the new plants so they at least don't mind the water.

But thank you for the advice. I guess I was hoping for a shortcut of some sort so I didn't have to experiment w. live fish. The six new Otocinclus appear to be coping, so far.

To follow up, then, I've a non-statistically valid sample of one characin and one cory that survived, for at least 10 years in low-normal GH, and high pH/KH.

So, can softer-leaning fish adapt to high KH/pH environments, then? What about other Characins, like tetras? S. American cichlids, like rams or apistogramma?

And do I really have to do this trial by error (at the cost of countless fish), or is there a good resource somewhere, so I can learn from others' mistakes?

Bump: Opare, sorry, just now saw your reply. I've not heard of SeriouslyFish so I'll be looking at it immediately. Thanks!

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PlantedRich

· #5 · Oct 15, 2016

There are several sites to get some close ideas that will be better than the "normal".
And it is worth at least giving it a look. While I feel fish can adapt quite a bit, it would seem logical to not force them if we can avoid it. With the iron, that is a bummer that will make life a little more difficult. But that is just part of the learning curve in everything we do. We have to adapt?
I'm not a big follower of other fish types but a search for forums on a specific group may turn up
several. For cichlids, I use this site:
Cichlid-Forum.com

This site is pretty cichlid specific and learning to get the info on each site can drive one a little crazy. I like the articles in the library here and then do a check of the fish profiles. I might add that I take a lot of info into account but do often find I can push outside of the recommended stuff.
I tend to push the limits but try to have a backup plan to use before the fish are sick or die. Cichlids give me more time and notice that they are not happy.

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mistergreen

· #6 · Oct 15, 2016

It depends on the fish how adaptive they are. I don't think the rams will do well in your water. You can get under the sink RO unit for the tanks and drinking water.

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Jeff B.

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 16, 2016

Well, my fears were at least partially realized- at least two of the new Otos we introduced to the tank on Thursday didn't make it. Far worse, the survivor Silver Hatchet, who made it through over 10 years with only a Cory for company, in high-pH, high KH water, finally succumbed last night. I can console myself that he was probably well beyond the normal max age for his kind, but it was almost a friend, always swimming up and bumping my fingers when doing water changes or testing the water. Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates were all 0 so the excitement might've just pushed it over the edge.

Yes, I know, anthropomorphism, but...

On the positive, at least two of the Otos are still hanging on, and the Cory is completely unfazed. Even more, my distress this morning brought me to the realization that our drinking water tap, which is separate from the kitchen faucet, is hooked up not to a filter unit but and actual RO unit in the basement! On a whim I tested the water, and pH was at 6.0, with GH and KH both around 1 (German units again, sorry.)

So with some experimentation I might be able to slowly, slowly, slowly mix a bit of RO water in at a time with well water during water changes to change the measurements to something more normal. Maybe in a few months the tank will be ready for those softwater fish we want.

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JustJen

· #8 · Oct 18, 2016

As others have said - fish are a lot more adaptable than most give them credit for. My water is very similar to yours (ph 8.3, gh 4, kh 19) and I've not run into much that I can't keep successfully. The most extreme case in my house is that I have 4 pairs of rams (gbr, electric blue, and gold) in various tanks that are all healthy and well colored. 3 are newer (last 6 months), but the last pair has been here for 2 years and spawns very regularly (they're in a community tank and only once did the eggs make it to hatching before they got eaten). IME, the key with rams (and I would say any of the fish that tend to be more finicky) is to source tank raised fish that have been raised in water that is as close to yours as possible. My rams come from a supplier whose water has a ph of 7.6, which is still lower than mine but it's a heck of a lot higher than what most people are raising rams in. I've not attempted to keep any of the SUPER softwater fish like axelrodi rasbora or green neons, but I keep angels, ember tetras, sparkling gourami, diamond tetras (with amazing color), etc. without issue. I've hit one exception - I can not keep cardinals alive beyond a couple of months, and I assume my water parameters are the issue as it doesn't matter who I purchase them from, wild caught vs. tank raised, who their tank mates are, etc. Neons do fine, just not cardinals.

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PlantedRich

· #9 · Oct 18, 2016

JustJen said:
As others have said - fish are a lot more adaptable than most give them credit for. My water is very similar to yours (ph 8.3, gh 4, kh 19) and I've not run into much that I can't keep successfully. The most extreme case in my house is that I have 4 pairs of rams (gbr, electric blue, and gold) in various tanks that are all healthy and well colored. 3 are newer (last 6 months), but the last pair has been here for 2 years and spawns very regularly (they're in a community tank and only once did the eggs make it to hatching before they got eaten). IME, the key with rams (and I would say any of the fish that tend to be more finicky) is to source tank raised fish that have been raised in water that is as close to yours as possible. My rams come from a supplier whose water has a ph of 7.6, which is still lower than mine but it's a heck of a lot higher than what most people are raising rams in. I've not attempted to keep any of the SUPER softwater fish like axelrodi rasbora or green neons, but I keep angels, ember tetras, sparkling gourami, diamond tetras (with amazing color), etc. without issue. I've hit one exception - I can not keep cardinals alive beyond a couple of months, and I assume my water parameters are the issue as it doesn't matter who I purchase them from, wild caught vs. tank raised, who their tank mates are, etc. Neons do fine, just not cardinals.

I have to agree with this. I have high PH 7.8, High GH and KH. Somewhere above what the liquid tests measure. But I have not found any trouble with keeping any of the fish I have tried. Far from trying any of the really fussy or really soft water folks but I have kept and bred angels and rainbow cichlids that tend to like less. I do find that there is a lot of trouble keeping small fish alive in my daughter's tank. Her water is a bit less extreme as she has a different supplier. But she also tries to keep neons and fish which tend to be bait fish in nature. I feel like there is a lot to be said for getting the fish which don't die so easily. Nature has a way of designing some fish to live a long time and others to produce lots of fry as they tend to not live very long.
Kind of like rabbits? They breed like rabbits because they don't expect to live very long?

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Jeff B.

Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 18, 2016

This is all great news- thanks. The last time I had this tank fully stocked was before the internet (at least before we had it), and all the books pretty much had hard rules. But didn't give good advice for you know, important stuff, like angels and serpaes and neons not being good tankmates (so those neons didn't last long but I don't blame the water!)

I just posted elsewhere about my hatchet and cory dying, so now I pretty much have a clean slate aside from the Otos in a heavily planted tank. Definitely interested in rams and the smaller tetras so I guess it's time to start rolling the dice.

Thanks again!

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