False ideals...

1287 Views 25 Replies 13 Participants Last post by mistergreen, Dec 5, 2010

Capsaicin_MFK

Discussion Starter · Dec 4, 2010

So our meeting for Minnesota Aquarium Society this month was a plant extravaganza and it had a very nice turn out. One thing that surprised me was what our presenter had to say about Amano stuff. He told us he personally met Mr. Amano and asked him how he maintains such beautiful tanks for long periods of time. Amano told him that he doesn't...he creates tank scapes just for a specific moment in time then rips apart the tank for something new. The problem with that is how we set our standards so high, just to get let down by the end result. For how much money I spend on my aquarium, I want the final scape I choose to be long lasting and easy to maintain.

I don't know...hearing that made me think of how girls see models in magazines and expect to get results like that from going to the gym.

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MCHRKiller

· #2 · Dec 4, 2010

I had read that elsewhere online a year or so ago. But if you look at his tanks they are just far to perfect which to me had always indicated digital enhancement and/or they were fresh setups for the photo and taken appart. His large 12ft one is pretty low tech, and is apparently a long term setup as it was on the cover of TFH.

Eden Marel

· #3 · Dec 4, 2010

Capsaicin_MFK said:
I don't know...hearing that made me think of how girls see models in magazines and expect to get results like that from going to the gym.

Yeaa it's sad. Appearances are everything I guess.

Or if they don't go to the gym they go for the quick fix...like liposuction or something like that, some plastic surgery. I don't think any of the models are really natural anymore, they probably had some sort of thing done to them, or really photoshopped, or tons of makeup. Did you know there is a makeup technique that you can do to make yourself look like you have abs? :eek5:

OverStocked

· #4 · Dec 4, 2010

I think the problem many people have is he shows something using a series of his products implying you can do this by using them... but not long term, apparently.

Many people who are very much into aquascapes do shorter term scapes though. ASW has many people who do this.

mistergreen

· #5 · Dec 4, 2010

You have to understand it from a cultural point of view as well. Art, landscapes, flower arrangments etc... aren't permanent things. They're very temporal.

False ideals for you because you didn't understand the intent to begin with but for Amano, it just is.

Capsaicin_MFK

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 4, 2010

It was asked in the meetings what type of substrate is the best for planted aquariums and someone mentioned trying Aquasoil...that is how the conversation started. All our speaker said was that Amano puts out these pictures of amazing planted tanks and we try and recreate them with poor results because of the fact that he only has the tank setup for a short period of time. It was also mentioned that Amano has like 8 people constantly maintaining the tanks in the showroom, so any hopes of keeping multiple "Amano" style tanks is time consuming.

CL

· #7 · Dec 4, 2010

mistergreen said:
You have to understand it from a cultural point of view as well. Art, landscapes, flower arrangments etc... aren't permanent things. They're very temporal.

False ideals for you because you didn't understand the intent to begin with but for Amano, it just is.

Agreed. Your hobby could be arranging flower, but you will only get them to stay the way they were meant to look if you use fake flowers or take a picture.

mistergreen

· #8 · Dec 4, 2010

Capsaicin_MFK said:
It was also mentioned that Amano has like 8 people constantly maintaining the tanks in the showroom, so any hopes of keeping multiple "Amano" style tanks is time consuming.

Heh, of course he has people. You expect him to maintain the show room himself?

RipariumGuy

· #9 · Dec 4, 2010

mistergreen said:
Heh, of course he has people. You expect him to maintain the show room himself?

LOL.

This is just another reason I am not a fan of Nature Aquarium setups. :icon_conf

(Not their products, just their setups.):thumbsup:

CL

· #10 · Dec 4, 2010

You don't like nature aquariums because Amano has hired people to maintain the tanks in the showroom that showcases all of ADAs products?
I guess that's the same reason I don't like Fords. I hate how they have all these other people maintain their cars. I want Henry Ford to change my oil, not some guy named Jim

Finalplay10

· #11 · Dec 4, 2010

Eh regardless of what Mr. Amano does with his tanks the ADA line is still top of the line. Would I love to have a set up that looks like one of his ? Absolutely ! Is it possible ? Sure it is. Just need to achieve the goal a different way then he does. Most of us don't have the resources it would take to re-create an aquascape as often as he apparently does. I'm sure there's more then one path you can take to get to the goal. There are plenty of tank threads on this site that prove that. He does it one way and a lot of us do it another. I'm personally not really bothered by this.

Francis Xavier

· #12 · Dec 4, 2010

For the record, this is a case of a horribly bad translation or information being left out from an original quote being taken out of context.

Many of the layouts that Amano does are short-term - yes. However, the reason behind that isn't because it's only picture perfect for a short period of time, but rather because There is such a high demand for new Amano-created content that A tank is setup, maintained perfectly, the picture is taken, and then it stays in the gallery for a little bit longer and is torn down again to create another layout to create more content.

Creating such a high and consistent amount of content to fill a magazine such as AquaJournal every single month, and to feed all the people who want to see more and more work requires this - it would be completely not feasible to maintain that rate of published content and have a completely brand new tank every single time you did it. The space requirements would be out of this world alone.

Therefore, the fact that the aquascapes are 'short-term' is a direct consequence of the high demand for more visual inspiration and content. I know for fact how much of a time investment and how much pre-planning has to go into content for planted aquariums. You need to be thinking 6 and 7 months ahead of where you are currently, and one flaw, one mistake, means you've lost a significant amount of time to turnover more content. Which means that Amano has to be thinking about the layout that goes into the AquaJournal scheduled for June while we're sitting here in December.

The cool long-term layouts are awe-inspiring and awesome on many levels, but honestly - you would get bored to tears if you just saw the same layouts for even a single year, which significantly decreases the value of that layout in terms of ROI. Plus - let's say you made a yearly trip to the Nature Aquarium Gallery - you would be disappointed severely and not make that trip if you just saw the same layouts year after year.

Also, Never assume that because you use Amano products and are unable to furnish an Amano aquascape that the product is flawed. If you are using every product Amano himself uses to maintain everything from the temporary to the long term aquariums, and are unable to create an Amano layout, then the only difference is skill and experience.

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macclellan

· #13 · Dec 4, 2010

mistergreen said:
You have to understand it from a cultural point of view as well. Art, landscapes, flower arrangments etc... aren't permanent things. They're very temporal.

Well, nothing is permanent, but there are degrees of permanence. Flower arrangements are obviously temporary (not temporal, that just means "pertaining to time"). Landscapes last a long time, millions of years in some cases. There's nothing about japanese culture that makes an aquascape short or long lived; consider bonsai for a counterpoint to flower arrangements. A more straightforward, acultural, answer as to why many professional aquascapes are shortlived has to do with an artist's creativity reaching fruition and the time it takes for plants to fill in. Once the image an artist has in his/her mind is achieved (and the photos have been taken

), it's time to move on.

None of that is a "false ideal," if you have the time and the skill. If your goal is to have a tank look good for a long time and not have it be a time-sink hobby, you may want to reevaluate your goals. There are also more 'permanent installation' type aquascapes (more analogous to sculptures). It's probably better for you to go for something along those lines.

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mistergreen

· #14 · Dec 4, 2010

Francis Xavier said:
If you are using every product Amano himself uses to maintain everything from the temporary to the long term aquariums, and are unable to create an Amano layout, then the only difference is skill and experience.

yeah, agree.
you can buy the paint and canvas but are you going to paint like Van Gogh?
It takes time, definitely.

F22

· #15 · Dec 4, 2010

Hmmmm, I wanna say I bummed about hearing this, but we all like to rescape our tanks, he just gets paid to do it...

RipariumGuy

· #16 · Dec 4, 2010

CL said:
You don't like nature aquariums because Amano has hired people to maintain the tanks in the showroom that showcases all of ADAs products?
I guess that's the same reason I don't like Fords. I hate how they have all these other people maintain their cars. I want Henry Ford to change my oil, not some guy named Jim

You misunderstand me. I was talking about the original post, not the quote.

Capsaicin_MFK

Discussion Starter · #17 · Dec 5, 2010

I'm not saying that it's impossible to maintain a setup like the ones Amano has, I'm saying it is impractical to have more than one or two unless you like to spend hours and hours maintaining them.

No doubt that ADA stuff is above top of the line. I love my Aquasoil. Just seems counterproductive to have a substrate that doesn't tolerate rescaping when the apparent idea of Nature aquariums is constant change. I want to setup my aquarium so it constantly remains a masterpiece, not a one photo-shoot wonder.

The "false ideals" comes from the fact that people see Amano's work in magazines and on the internet, then try and replicate his collections with poor results in the long term.

Francis Xavier

· #18 · Dec 5, 2010

You can maintain a planted aquarium for as long as you like - but the very nature of planted aquariums is that they change over time. That's nothing ADA specific, just the nature of the beast.

For the record - aquasoil holds up just fine for rescaping, just drain the tank down and you're pretty much good to go. Or you can use it long-term. We've had some aquariums in the field up and running for going on 5 years with the same aquasoil.

RipariumGuy

· #19 · Dec 5, 2010

Capsaicin_MFK said:
I'm not saying that it's impossible to maintain a setup like the ones Amano has, I'm saying it is impractical to have more than one or two unless you like to spend hours and hours maintaining them.

No doubt that ADA stuff is above top of the line. I love my Aquasoil. Just seems counterproductive to have a substrate that doesn't tolerate rescaping when the apparent idea of Nature aquariums is constant change. I want to setup my aquarium so it constantly remains a masterpiece, not a one photo-shoot wonder.

The "false ideals" comes from the fact that people see Amano's work in magazines and on the internet, then try and replicate his collections with poor results in the long term.

Direct hit!

roud:

Francis Xavier

· #20 · Dec 5, 2010

I think people read way, way too much into Amano's photography - all it is meant to be is a source of inspiration. It's an ideal to shoot for, Amano has dedicated his life in the pursuit of a perfect Nature Aquarium - and arguably, the result of that is a much larger planted tank community that -probably- wouldn't exist without Amano having been there giving us an idea of what's possible and then continually trying to push his own limits.

There's nothing false about spreading an ideal that's only intent is to inspire people to join the hobby. It's not about attaining perfection - it's about the pursuit of attaining that perfection if -only- for a moment.

All I can say, is that if capturing a picture of an aquarium at a specific moment in time is a false ideal, than the entire profession and hobby of photography represents a false ideal.

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