EI Overdosing?

3237 Views 7 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Deanna, Mar 19, 2017

MCFC

Discussion Starter · Mar 18, 2017

I've only been trying a planted tank for a few months, but I decided to try and jump in at the deep end with pressurized CO2, high(ish) light and EI dosing ferts. I have questions about all of it but I'll try and stick to my fert ones for this thread.

My understanding of the EI dosing method is that there is an underlying assumption that too much nutrients can't be a bad thing, it's only when combined with incompatible lighting or CO2 that the problems arise. So for me, with 2 mL of my NPK solution being good for 10 gallons, I decided to go with 12 mL (which should be good for 60 gallons) in my 55 gallon to make sure there were no deficiencies. But in theory, couldn't I add 50 mL each time, and as long as my lighting and CO2 were good, and I did my 50% WC every week, there would be no problems?

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Willcooper

· #2 · Mar 18, 2017

Ei requires the water change each week of 50% or more to eliminate doubling of nutrients. The premise is that dosing to these levels so they never go beyond double the concentrations will not lead to deficiencies or toxicities. Going way past that (not sure of the concentration of your 50 ml dose) is not recommended as you could run into problems from too many nutrients in the tank. It is a waste either way because the plants would not consume any where near the amount being dosed.

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MCFC

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 18, 2017

@Willcooper - I know it would be a waste, but isn't that partly the thinking behind EI, just not so extreme? Also, dry ferts are super cheap, so I'm OK with some waste if it means a simple way for me to keep my plants thriving. The 50 mL dose was just for exaggeration. I guess the question is "Why fiddle around with specific target PPMs for individual nutrients if you can just go way over the top and be sure you are not deficient in anything?"

So if I notice my plants showing an iron deficiency can I just double or triple my dose of Micros to make sure my iron is high enough, and not worry about either it being too high or any of the other micro nutrients being too high?

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ed.junior

· #4 · Mar 18, 2017

MCFC said:
@Willcooper - I know it would be a waste, but isn't that partly the thinking behind EI, just not so extreme? Also, dry ferts are super cheap, so I'm OK with some waste if it means a simple way for me to keep my plants thriving. The 50 mL dose was just for exaggeration. I guess the question is "Why fiddle around with specific target PPMs for individual nutrients if you can just go way over the top and be sure you are not deficient in anything?"

So if I notice my plants showing an iron deficiency can I just double or triple my dose of Micros to make sure my iron is high enough, and not worry about either it being too high or any of the other micro nutrients being too high?

I really think that you should go to the source at barrreport.com and check it out. Tom addressed all that more than a decade ago.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...tive-index-of-dosing-or-no-need-for-test-kits

EI targets were already set already much higher than required by the plants. I discussed with him some rough target concentrations for a high tech tank, and he saw no sense in going higher than in 10ppm NO3, 3.5ppm PO4, 10ppm K and 0.2ppm Fe, 3x per week.

The whole point is to have non-limiting fert levels. You have to know what you are dosing, the concentrations, and not just millilitres...

Too much ferts are a problem as well. Plants have the ability to use a very wide range of fert concentrations, but there is also a limit. 1000ppm of Nitrates will kill most life in a tank, save some exceptions.

So, back to where I started, check Tom's work, at the source. Lost of question will be answered, even a couple you did not ask yet

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MCFC

Discussion Starter · #5 · Mar 18, 2017

@ed.junior - Thanks for the response! I have spent quite a bit of time at barrreport.com, as well as searching this forum, and I generally run into one of two problems: either the posts are many years old or they contain a lot of conflicting/confusing information. I've tried to pick up as much information as possible directly from posts by Mr Barr, but I haven't been good at keeping a record and so I often forget who said what.

Just a quick example, your target rates vs the ones Mr Barr mentions here (post #22): "I like adding 5ppm of PO4 3x a week personally. 10-12ppm of NO3 3 x week and .6ppm of Fe as the proxy for all my traces 3x a week". So that means a 40% increase in PO4 and a 300% increase in Fe!

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Dempsey

· #6 · Mar 18, 2017

Read the thread below when you have the time. Personally, I find EI the easiest way to dose. Using dry ferts of course...

I tried going lean once. Maybe I could have adjusted and made it work, maybe not. But why put that much work into it when we see that here are a few methods that work well. I have come to learn that learning from others mistakes is much easier and cost effective than learning from your own. At least in this hobby :wink2:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/155380-dose-less-not-more.html

Bump: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/155380-dose-less-not-more.html

Sorry, I made it look like it was in my sig.

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ed.junior

· #7 · Mar 18, 2017

MCFC said:
@ed.junior
Just a quick example, your target rates vs the ones Mr Barr mentions here (post #22): "I like adding 5ppm of PO4 3x a week personally. 10-12ppm of NO3 3 x week and .6ppm of Fe as the proxy for all my traces 3x a week". So that means a 40% increase in PO4 and a 300% increase in Fe!

I understand. Well, I dose that from EDTA alone, besides DTPA and Gluconate. All that together and we could be talking about 3ppm weekly.

I hit the brakes because of the Lythraceae family, mostly rotalas and ammanias. I found enough evidence to personally see how narrower these plants tolerate iron/micros consumption through the leaves. They are much pickier than most plants.

When it comes to the other plants, I just dont care about toxicity. People struggle with the most simple plants, like HC Cuba and Ludwigia Rubin, and blame stupid stuff, fert toxicity, etc. I have dosed crazy amounts, tested the water to check whether the ferts were still there, and plants did just fine. I really leave toxicity talks to the extreme cases, like when people gas their fishes to death. #flameon

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Deanna

· #8 · Mar 19, 2017

I, too, have just added a pressurized CO2 system. However, I have spent many decades with plants on the low-tech field. I have always used too much light and have had to battle algae as a result. Following Tom Barr's breakthrough work in developing the EI approach, I adopted it shortly after it was introduced and reduced the loading to try to align with the low CO2. Following my EI introduction, albeit slightly modified, I had a much easier time optimizing plant health and algae control. I'm looking forward to impressive results now that I've entered the high-tech arena.

Like you, I initially played around with going overboard, since too much didn't seem to matter, but discovered that it does matter - plant health and algae worsened and, I noticed some fish struggling, perhaps due to nitrate levels. So, I gradually came to understand Tom's concept a little better from a second angle. Yes, the limiting aspect of any nutrient is at the core of his concept, but he also suggests that the on-going load of nutrients should be sufficiently plentiful and controlled (the control being the 50% weekly water change). So, I focused more on what the dosing does to that on-going equilibrium, as he touches upon.

To do this, I have found the Rotala Butterfly (rotalabutterfly.com) calculators to be the most useful. In particular, the "Fertiliser Accumulation" link which shows the equilibrium ppm levels that you will reach (it takes a few weeks) for each dosing level. It makes Tom's ppm loading emphasis very easy to see and helps you establish the right dosing regimen.

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