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I don't recommend DSM for HC. It carpets faster submersed.
Speaking from experience Solcielo? NinHao, I've tried both methods and DSM has a slight edge. My recommendation is if you have a scape with some elevation/slope to it, do DSM and don't flood till the HC is rooted and spreading. Another factor to consider is your source of HC. If you get it from another member's tank in submersed form, it would probably be better to start it that way. Both high light levels (see threads on PAR) and CO2 are keys for HC success in my tanks. The last piece of advice is to stay away from animals that are known substrate diggers (cichlids, corys), unless you like flying HC carpets. You are more than welcome to visit my tank journals in this forum for more details. Hope that helps & good luck. :bounce:
 

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I'm dry starting HC in my nano and Solcielo may have a point.. I've seen journals with faster growth in shorter time submersed.

But then again, the root growth is great when doing DSM. Most of the initial growth is root in DSM.
 

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How could submerged HC growth be faster than emersed? Fully submerged aquatic plants almost always have slower growth than terrestrial plants because of CO2 constraints. Do you guys just have a sodastream hooked up to your tank or something?

I've had great success with DSM HC. Getting cuba to root in a filled tank is such a pain. If you find yourself wanting to carpet HC in an established tank, and you cant seem to keep the stuff from floating, try laying some thick wires over plugs.
 

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I'm speaking from my experience. Under ideal submersed conditions (w/CO2 + ferts), HC will spread quickly within a few days. But terrestrially, it barely does anything in the same amount of time, probably because it's developing its root structure. Don't DSM HC if you'll be adding CO2. If not, then DSM would be a great choice. This is Tom Barr's advice and mine.
 

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I'm speaking from my experience. Under ideal submersed conditions (w/CO2 + ferts), HC will spread quickly within a few days. But terrestrially, it barely does anything in the same amount of time, probably because it's developing its root structure. Don't DSM HC if you'll be adding CO2. If not, then DSM would be a great choice. This is Tom Barr's advice and mine.
Really? Do you have any evidence? Pics, tank journals in the forum of your tanks anywhere? Now your aligning w/ Tom Barr? Before it was critiquing w/ Amano? Come on, show us some evidence of this "experience"?

The statement of quick submersed growth under ideal conditions within a FEW DAYS I find very hard to believe and have yet to see. Adding CO2 during DSM? Atmospheric CO2 is much greater than the 30ppm ideally needed for submersed growth, so why add CO2 during DSM. Crediibility my friend. :bounce:
 

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That's very strange! I don't doubt that that's your experience, and I certainly don't know better than Tom Barr. I suppose I believe you, but I'm still very confused how this could be the case. In the wild, HC is only partly aquatic. It should be adapted to take advantage of emergent growth, which is almost universally better than fully submerged growth. According to Diana Walstad (and like, everyone else), CO2 is almost always the limiting factor for aquatic plants in the wild. The atmosphere always has more CO2 in it than the water does, even if you're injecting.

Did you add ferts when you grew HC DSM?
 

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I feel it does better if you pack the tank with a lot of HC from the start, do the water changes, say 50-80% 2-3x a week for the first month.

DSM is something I promoted and came up with and where it really helps is with a new non CO2/carbon enriched tank with growth is so slow already.

But I think normal set ups work better using CO2 with HC and most foreground plants. DSM will not save anyone from poor aquarium once you fill up the tank. But the DSM helps folks learn to grow plants emergently and if they only have a pot or two of the plant available, OR if they want to cycle their tank before filling it up or need/want to mineralize their soil(say if they use top soil, loam etc). Might as well do that inside the tank since you have to wait a 2-4 weeks anyhow.

So there are a few good reasons to use DSM, but I do not/would not use it for most carpeting plans for HC. End results will be the same either way.
CO2 is the issue for most, for those lush nice carpets you see? CO2, CO2 and CO2.
 

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I feel it does better if you pack the tank with a lot of HC from the start, do the water changes, say 50-80% 2-3x a week for the first month.

DSM is something I promoted and came up with and where it really helps is with a new non CO2/carbon enriched tank with growth is so slow already.

But I think normal set ups work better using CO2 with HC and most foreground plants. DSM will not save anyone from poor aquarium once you fill up the tank. But the DSM helps folks learn to grow plants emergently and if they only have a pot or two of the plant available, OR if they want to cycle their tank before filling it up or need/want to mineralize their soil(say if they use top soil, loam etc). Might as well do that inside the tank since you have to wait a 2-4 weeks anyhow.

So there are a few good reasons to use DSM, but I do not/would not use it for most carpeting plans for HC. End results will be the same either way.
CO2 is the issue for most, for those lush nice carpets you see? CO2, CO2 and CO2.
^ what the master said. Agree totally. I've had zero problems growing it submersed. Like tom said, co2 is key. The stuff I used was grown emersed, so when I planted it, I just turned the co2 up way high and it took off like a rocket.
 

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Really? Do you have any evidence? Pics, tank journals in the forum of your tanks anywhere? Now your aligning w/ Tom Barr? Before it was critiquing w/ Amano? Come on, show us some evidence of this "experience"?
A bit off topic.. I browse and lurk a lot on this and other forums. Seems like a group of people are basically harassing socielo, even when he's giving sound advice or an opinion when the OP asks for one. Even if he has no credibility, harassing someone at every turn makes a person look petty, and to me they lose credibility themselves. :sleep:

...
 

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I agree with Solcielo lawrencia, when given high tech conditions (High light, CO2, Ferts) submersed plants grow faster than emersed plants, and sometimes even without high tech conditions. Why you ask?

This is because emersed plants must grow several more components than submersed plants in order to live. They must develop much larger roots since all their nutrients come from roots rather then stem, leaf and roots (slower nutrient absorption), emersed plants must make a wax cuticle which requires more energy, emersed plants must make stomata on the leaves to control dehydration and CO2 input, emersed plants must put more energy into reinforcing stems, leaves and other structural components to hold up against gravity. There are many other modifications that emersed plants must make on top of those listed above in order to survive in open air. Have you ever seen a stem plant grow 3-4 inches per week in an emersed setup? I never have, but submersed our plants routinely grow this much and sometimes more.

Just because there is a higher CO2 concentration in air doesn't mean plants are able to use 100% of that and grow that much faster.

Most submersed plants grow faster than emersed plants. There are many posts to back up this observation. Solcielo lawrencia's, my own experience, axelrod12's in this thread, and many others:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...tarting-your-first-emersed-12.html#post663049
 

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Emegrent plants grow fast actually in virtually all cases as a function of dry weight biomass, but to the aquarist, the lighter fluffy submersed growth can expand and has no need for support due to the water's buoyancy. Most all aquatic plants have honeycomb stem structure to reduce the biomass and nutrient's required for expansion/elongation.

So it might seem like they grow slower, but that's not the case.

Overall, I just find it easier to go with the normal routine for HC and most foreground plants, the only time I really do the DMS would be for a non CO2 tank perhaps. Even there, with patience, there's a few examples of decent HC lawns in non CO2 tanks, but it does much better with a lot of CO2 gas.

Maybe I'll use some HC in a new tank that's in the works. It's a bit of a PITA to trim and keep mowed, but not impossible either.
 

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Emegrent plants grow fast actually in virtually all cases as a function of dry weight biomass, but to the aquarist, the lighter fluffy submersed growth can expand and has no need for support due to the water's buoyancy.
That is probably correct, emersed plants weigh more, and might pack on the weight faster that submersed plants. This is due to the structural changes I mentioned in my previous post.

However, aquarists don't judge how much a plant has grown by dry weight. Submersed plants produce more leaves, nodes, and stem tissue in the same time frame. They will fill in a tank much faster than emersed plants.
 

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I am now at the 4th week of DSM and I have to say the HC dosent seem to spread. It definitevly roots, but hasn't really spread yet.

The DHG, on the other hand, has already started spreading!

Quick question: I'll be filling the tank in about 2 weeks, do you recommend I add 2-3 Amano shrimps so the algea dosent bloom? I'll be saturating the tank with co2, not sure my Amano will like that.
 
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