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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I wrote this new site an email that I wanted to share with you all. As some of you know, I have 2 show dogs, and spend much of my time raising money and helping shelter dogs and cats. It is something I am passionate about <helping animals in general but not in a cult-peta way> and I found out on my Weim breeder's list that a new ebay-type site is auctioning off puppies and kittens like one would a plant. Feel free to write:

[email protected]
or visit the site if you want to puke.

www.petbayusa.com
his name is Cliff Nees

and let him know how you feel about it. Clogging up his server with emails would make me smile.

Thanks

By the way this is what I wrote to him

This site is unacceptable. Auctioning off live animals....what is next, people???? You are supporting the very backyard breeders and puppy mills that people like me spend time and money shutting down. In addition, you are not doing due diligence on prospective new homes. You will be the very reason for full shelters. You should reconsider your business plan.
 

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I'm not a dog person and I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but what is the difference between this and buying fish from hobbyist or aquabid? Oh, and your link goes to some portal, I think you meant www.petbayusa.com.
 

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Are you sure its .com ?

I clicked your link and appear to have landed at a generic website that has nothing to do with auctioning (as far as I can tell).

Scott
Sanford, Maine
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm not a dog person and I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but what is the difference between this and buying fish from hobbyist or aquabid? Oh, and your link goes to some portal, I think you meant www.petbayusa.com.
The differences are many.

First, I don't spend most of my free time and a lot of money preventing fish from being euthanized from over-crowded "fish" shelters and over-populated rescue groups that result from bad breeders, backyard breeders, pet stores and "fish" mills. Secondly, humans and dogs/cats are mammalian....There are so many differences I cannnot even list them all here.


Scott: try again, I typoed the link.
 

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Fresh, you post an interesting contradiction.
you care for two purebred show dogs, and
care passionately about shelter animals, yet
how did you get your dogs? how do you
expect others less connected as you to
find whatever purebreds they may want?
obviously passionate people like you still want
purebreds, but don't want anyone to buy
them at an auction? -though horses, cattle,
and most other animals are traded this way.

just because we have an emotional
attachment to an animal, does not
make it any less of a commodity.
Tort laws treat them as property.
Let's be clear. I'm not advocating
potential mistreatment of animals.
We are discussing how they may
be bought and sold, nothing more.

If pet auction sights maybe encourage more
breeding, possibly filling more shelters with
eventually unwanted pets, then why not
close all pet stores that sell animals, as
they basically have the same net effect.

I wish there was a good pet auction sight.
I've been trolling PetFinder's for years for
a purebred cat I want with not luck yet.
an active pet auction sight might have
saved me a lot of effort, and still gotten
some animal out there a good home.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Joey: many holes here
First of all, finding your purebred cat on a pet auction from some bad breeder to populate for profit is not finding a poor animal a home, it is creating demand, whereby encouraging them to continue...and I do not find mammals that are not for consumption to be a commodity, despite what you say. As for being less connected as myself....I was not connected....I did research!!! It is out there for the taking, if you find it to be a priority, which I would hope it is. You are getting a family member. As for horses, they are bred like dogs, and someone looking for a horse researches and goes through the same avenues for pedigree, health and temperament.

As for my purebred dogs, I promote them in shows for the mere purpose to bring attention to people out there to only buy animals from reputable breeders with a track record of conformation, health and temperament. It is the opposite to what you are implying. I wish all pet stores only sold supplies and NOT pets. Pets should be left for reputable breeders with champion lines and proven track records of health. If breeding was left to those people, our shelters would not be filled and over-populated and so many euthanized. I look at it this way. I do what I can to promote great breeders, and I know many of the best breeders in the country. These are breeders that not only have healthy animals, but if for some reason the dog doesn't fit in the forever home, a reputable breeder will always take him/her back and keep them in their facilities, not crowd a shelter. Reputable breeders speak to their families and feel, in their heart of hearts, that the animals they breed are always "theirs". Reputable breeders are not in it for the money, and rarely turn a real profit as they are always LESS than a pet store to disuade people from even going there. They are ethical and are always doing the right thing. My dogs are great advocates for that line of thinking and I am happy to say, have turned many off to pet stores and bad breeders, and serve as educators to all that stop them, whether it is on the street here in Manhatta, or at a show, or at Westminster. In addition to having my dogs come from a reputable breeder, I spend a lot of time and money helping shelters and volunteering. You see Joey, it is necessary for me to do that, but if that was ALL I did, that would merely be putting a band-aid on the very problem. I am interested in helping, and I do so regularly, but also getting to the root of the problem. The root is raising awareness of the horrible practices and conditions that puppy mills and backyard breeders pose, and my dogs are proof and ambassadors of sorts. No dog in my animals' pedigrees end up in rescue or in a shelter. That is the ultimate goal, not just to throw money at the situation. It is simple economics....stop the demand, and the supply will dry up, and the only ones left to breed will be the ones that deserve to. In short, do your research, go to shows and watch...meet people, ask the tough questions. If anyone on here ever needs to get in touch with a reputable breeder and does not know where to begin, please email me lynnieatnycdotrrdotcom and I will be happy to help you in any way.

Fresh, you post an interesting contradiction.
you care for two purebreed show dogs, and
care passionately about shelter animals, yet
how did you get your dogs? how do you
expect others less connected as you to
find whatever purebreeds they may want?
obvisouly passionate people like you want
purebreeds, but don't want anyone to buy
them at an auction, though horses, cattle,
and most other animals are traded this way.
If pet auction sights would encourage more
breeding, possibly filling more shelters with
eventually unwanted pets, then why not
close all pet stores that sell animals, as
they basically have the same net effect.

I wish there was a good pet auction sight.
I've been trolling PetFinder's for years for
a purebred cat I want with not luck yet.
an active pet auction sight might have
saved me a lot of effort, and still gotten
some animal out there a good home.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Joey:
P.S. Tell me what breed you have been looking for in a cat, because I do a lot of cat rescue in the 5 burroughs and Hudson County, and they rarely make it to Petfinder because they are taken up right away. I can keep a special eye out for you...and NO I am not connected....volunteer like I do and you will rescue them first hand....
 

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Thanks for your offer to help. I may take you up on it one day.
I eventually found an active Yahoo newsgroup specifically for this
breed and will maybe adopt a retired breeder cat through them.
the reason it's taking so long is breeders are reluctant to fly
their cats to the Northeast, as it's an obscure Asian type.

anyway, after reading your rebuttal, my opinion has not changed,
however your passion did in fact make me realize something that
would certainly make me oppose a pet auction sight.

I'm a firm believer that potential pet owners should go though
some sort of vetting process, where they are interviewed to
make sure that the motivation and environment for the pet
will serve the pets best interest as well as it's new owner.

Because unqualified pet owners, and impulse buyers would
likely use an auction sight, for that reason alone I would join
your crusade against any such sight. obviously if some sort
of reliable vetting was the standard on such a sight, then
I would be happy about that additional pet trading resource.
 

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Live animals are auctioned off all the time. Mainly livestock. Nothing new or unusual about that.

If you want to shut this guy down then let eBay know about the site. I would imagine they can shut him down in hours.
 

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I am not necessarily supporting that type of site but what indication is there that any of these puppy sellers are "bad" breeders or "puppy mills"? I am not any kind of expert but it seems possible that these are just regular folks selling these pups.
 

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Where I come from, unwanted pets are shot in the back 40 or set loose to make it on their own. A few years ago the DNR made a big fuss about opening a feral cat season; the purpose was not to open a season, but to make people realize what happens when they set their cat loose.

Bullet through the guts, starvation in a swamp, or sold on an auction site to someone who wants it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
the point is .....quit breeding them for profit! If you create demand....they will continue, indefinitely! If you stop altogether and only patronize those with a passion and knowledge and education....that tests hips, thyroid, elbows, genetic anomolies...then goes back 2 years later to do the same before breeding to another PROVEN partner....

Frimp: How do I know they are bad breeders on there? It is simple. Good breeders have all of their animals spoken for before a single baby is born. They NEVER have a need to advertise or put them on a site or in a newspaper, ever. I am a member now of 6 breeding groups of champion lines, and after researching everyone that has an auction on that site, they are all KNOWN puppymills.

Rex: Livestock/consumption very different than family companion. Picture this...you buy a puppy from a puppymill or pet store <bad idea? and the dog reaches age 2, and is playing with your 4 year old kid...then all of the sudden loses it and mauls the child's face? hmmm inbreeding??? perhaps, perpetuating a gene?
Here is a second scenario....The new dog you have turns 1 and already has liver problems, or has hip dyslplasia and can't walk...bad knees...you are up to you ass in vet bills and the dog isn't even mature yet! ALL of this can be prevented by going to a reputable breeder with champion lines for conformation, health and temperament. If by chance an anomaly occurs.....guess what, that breeder will take the dog back and replace it for another, and will house the animal themselves...not "take it out back and shoot it"

And "confuted" I am not even sure what argument you are even making here....

One thing is sure...I am speaking to deaf ears...I guess many here ar not even hearing my point....I am also a fertility specialist so I have a different take on things...I have a genetic interest and feel when you bring a life into the world there is a huge responsibility....especially a companion. Perpetuating bad genetics means one thing...more animals in rescue...more money spent, more deaths more time spent working on preventative measures.... I am closing this thread now myself <at least my voice on it> ....I said my piece and urge you to research before you end up with something you will regret. Cut off demand, dry up supply.....that simple
 

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I am not necessarily supporting that type of site but what indication is there that any of these puppy sellers are "bad" breeders or "puppy mills"? I am not any kind of expert but it seems possible that these are just regular folks selling these pups.
That would be because no responsible breeder would sell of a puppy to a complete stranger over the internet. They would want to be sure that the puppy is going to a home that understands that particular breed's needs and that the owners are capable of providing a good, safe home. They would also be there for the life of that animal, to give advice and to take the dog back if the owner is unable to keep it. Try getting that with someone that's only interested in how fast you can hand over the check and take the animal from their home.

Also, a responsible breeder health-screens all breeding animals before allowing it into the breeding program. Contact any of those "breeders" advertising on an auction site and see how many of the parent dogs have been OFA certified, CERF or VwD cleared, etc. It's a very, very, VERY good bet that the people will say "huh?" or, "Aw, mah line ain't got that stuff." Except, well, if you don't screen for it, ya don't know, do you? The end result is that you can potentially end up with a puppy that's a time bomb of health issues. True, it can sometimes happen with a carefully screened and bred litter, but I personally would rather stack the odds in MY favour to get a healthy animal and not one big walking heartache and vet bill.

Not supporting dog auction sites or puppy mills not only works towards stopping irresponsible breeders, but also helps prevent someone learning the hard way about BYB bred dogs and all the issues they can sadly bring with them. Not having to go through that is enough reason to do some research and get an animal from a caring breeder.
 

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I agree with you Lynn!

I have gone the opposite route myself though - all of my animals are mutts that were rescued or adopted from the shelter. If I wanted a pure bred dog, doing the research like you did and finding a GOOD breeder, that's what I'd do. Pet shop puppies make me so so sad, especially when the people don't even realize how many truly great dogs there are in the shelters.

Personally I wasn't aiming for a specific type of dog or cat though, just a good friend, so I visited the shelter about once every week or two weeks for several months until I found the right one. I found out as I was signing the papers on Saturday that she would have been put to sleep on the following Monday. One less dog in the shelter, and one more dog in a happy home!

This auction site does not sit well with me at all.
 

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Thanks Lynn and Wilder for your responses. As I said I am not any kind of expert. Both of my dogs were rescues. I understand now what you are saying. And I can see where this could perpetuate the problem. My ears aren't deaf. My questions were born of ignorance so that's why I asked. As much as I would love a purebred dog I feel the responsible thing for me is to get my dogs from the shelter or pound.
 

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Lynn, this subject is like politics or religion--you'll never get agreement on it. I feel like you do, my dogs and cats are pets, with a lifetime commitment! I am the same with my horses--Honey is 35, I bought her when she was 10. Tuffy is 25, and Striker is 22, I've had them since they were babies. I was brought up to believe that animal ownership is a responsibility, you don't dump them just because they get to be too costly, too inconvenient, or too old. Unfortunately, we can't even manage to regulate the licensing of dogs and cats, much less the breeding. If I had my druthers, only registered breeders would be allowed to breed dogs and cats, but it would be impossible to police. So we have to depend on people being responsible pet owners, and we all know how that works!! Spay and neuter your pets, folks, and don't perpetuate the problem. And don't get that puppy in the window because it is sooo cute, but because you are ready to properly care for and love it. The small, hobbyist breeder used to serve those people who couldn't afford the really expensive dogs, but you could go to their premises, see how the dogs were raised, interact with the parent dogs--many wonderful family pets were acquired that way. I am appalled at how much people are willing to pay for 'puppy mill' puppies--are they nuts??!! And Jen, my dogs and cats, too, are either shelter animals or 'found on the street'. If you want a companion, a mutt can give as much love as a pedigreed animal.

And for those of you who compare livestock with dogs and cats, most cows, goats, etc, are raised for food, not to be pets. Horses used to be a commodity, but cars have been around a long time now, and the majority of horses in this country are pets. Most horses at local auctions are castoffs, the untrained, the lame, the mistreated, and are purchased by those who are not knowledgeable about horses or buyers for the slaughterhouse (another whole subject).

If you really want to get sick, come to Texas and visit any Walmart parking lot on a weekend--there will always be someone selling puppies or kittens out of the back of a pickup. The sad thing is that they do manage to sell them, and so they go home and breed (and inbreed) their dog or cat again.
 

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Lynn, I agree with you that this site isn't a good thing for animals. The reasons I feel this way can be precisely summed up by what SpyPet said:
I'm a firm believer that potential pet owners should go though some sort of vetting process, where they are interviewed to make sure that the motivation and environment for the pet will serve the pets best interest as well as it's new owner.

Because unqualified pet owners, and impulse buyers would likely use an auction sight, for that reason alone I would join your crusade against any such sight. obviously if some sort of reliable vetting was the standard on such a sight, then I would be happy about that additional pet trading resource.
You are exactly right, Spypet. Not only would impulse buyers and impulse breeders (people out to make a buck without learning how to breed responsibly first) be most likely to use that site, imho there's a good chance sites like PetBay would encourage the growth in numbers of irresponsible owners and breeders.


The rest of this is just a general statement to illustrate mho of why impulse buying/breeding of animals is not good. It's directed at anyone and everyone reading, not only SpyPet, Lynn, Jenn, etc., since I'd obviously be preaching to the choir there. ;)

I breed horses and have seen this mentality firsthand. One such impulse buyer I dealt with was a "non-horsey" mother who wanted to buy a weanling foal as a first horse for her eight year old son so "they could grow up together". Not good. If someone doesn't have at least experience enough to know of the inherent hierarchy of the species and how to work with that hierarchy, they're asking for trouble. They'll feed treats incorrectly, let the foal mouth them and paw at them because it's "cute" when the horse is a baby, and not learn a thing about nutrition past what their neighbor/coworker/friend-of-the-family said about all horses needing grain and lots of it.

Down the road they frequently find themselves with a thousand pound adult horse who constantly accosts them for treats, expecting another handout; bites and kicks at feeding time; is so malnourished they'll never be healthy or comfortable; and is on such a "sugar high" from the starches in the grain that they're flat out dangerous to be around. So the owner starts ignoring the horse because he's "too hard to deal with" and the horse lingers in limbo in a pasture by himself, something inherently cruel to do to a herd animal, and some days gets fed adequately when they think to throw some hay over the fence. Yes, the impulse buyer is punished through getting kicked and pawed and not being able to enjoy the relationship with a horse that so many of us enjoy, but the animal is punished as much if not more through no fault of it's own.

All this isn't even mentioning the irresponsible breeders who think, "I can get rich breeding and selling horses!" You know how to make a million dollars breeding horses? Start with three million.:icon_lol: It takes a large amount of research and experience to learn what animals should be bred and which they should be bred to. And even more to learn how to manage the entire process. Then there's the money to afford the good breeding stock and adequate care. Then there's the time it takes every day. Then there's...

I'm not trying to give the impression that I'm looking down from on high at everyone who wants to breed any type of animal. Far from it. I am looking down on the ones whose sum total of breeding prep is, "Oh, she's pretty! I think I'll breed her!" or "Well, he's so hard to handle that he isn't good for anything but breeding." *sigh*

Now, substitute "dog" for "horse", "herd animal" for "pack animal", etc., and you'll see what I think sites like Petbay, sales outlets without any kind of standards to ensure at least basic animal care education, will cause for even more dogs than are in that situation now. Same for cats, rabbits, et al.

Needless to say, I explained to the woman who wanted to buy one of my foals why it wasn't a good idea and turned the sale down, instead steering her towards buying an older, well trained gelding for her son. I hope she took my advice.


Picture this...you buy a puppy from a puppymill or pet store ... and the dog reaches age 2, and is playing with your 4 year old kid...then all of the sudden loses it and mauls the child's face? hmmm inbreeding??? perhaps, perpetuating a gene?
Here is a second scenario....The new dog you have turns 1 and already has liver problems, or has hip dyslplasia and can't walk...bad knees...you are up to you ass in vet bills and the dog isn't even mature yet! ALL of this can be prevented by going to a reputable breeder...
Hear hear!

{/rant}:icon_redf I could talk all day, but I think I'll spare y'all and stop here.:icon_redf :icon_redf :icon_redf:icon_lol:
 

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Lynn, what Nikki said, ". . . this subject is like politics or religion--you'll never get agreement on it." A responsible pet owner almost instinctively does the "right thing" and knows what that is without having to be overly educated about it. I searched for almost two years, two years!, for my Peke before settling on a breeder within "striking" distance since at the time I didn't have the resources to fly or want the puppy shipped. I had to sign a contract of course, which specifically stated if for ANY reason I ever had to give up the dog it was to be returned to her. Likewise I had to sign contracts with my present Maine Coons, and although their breeder isn't heavily into showing she is hugely committed to testing for genetic diseases and doing her best to keep these and other problems out of her lines. My first Coons (different breeder) I had to sign a contract that they would not be de-clawed OR allowed outside and that they would be cared for as befitted the breed. A responsible breeder almost NEVER makes a profit! Or at least not one that would convince most people to stay in business!

When I had to re-home a Golden Retriever that my mom could no longer care for I spent quite a bit of money on her (heartworms) getting her into shape before putting her up for adoption over the internet and turned down at least half a dozen people that seemed to think all they had to do was show up the door and I'd hand over the dog. She finally went to a wonderful home in Kentucky that was a fantastic match for her.

Horses and cattle and all that though, although there is a horse overpopulation problem, it's from the same place. Backyard breeders breeding inferior stock. Cattle and chickens will always have a home.

On my plate ;).
 

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I actually got paid in gift certificates to take my dog (breeder reject black lab). I now know why, shes slightly poorly behaved :), but shes very sweet. In my opinion, its a little irresponsible to be purposefully breeding pets when the "natural" feral or unwanted population far outweighs the demand. In any event, that site is whack. Wiggety whack.
 

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I got an email back saying that theyre not responsible for what buyers or sellers do, and then advised me to read their terms. HAH. Terms of service mean nothing when your terms are not so moral. In fact i sent them 40 or so emails. Their poorly designed site leaves your message up after you resubmit.
 
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