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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, everyone,

Chishio Hidaka, a Japanese girl doing her master's degree in the National University of Singapore needs 10 samples each of the following mosses:

Java moss - Taxiphyllum barbieri
Weeping moss - Vesicularia ferriei
Erect moss - Vesicularia reticulata
Christmas moss - Vesicularia montagnei
Singapore moss - Vesicularia dubyana

She intends to build up a database of the DNA profiles of the various aquarium mosses in the hobby. To find out more details, please take a look at my post in killies.com. Here's the link:

http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3565

Thank you.
 

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I'm not sure AFLP is the best way to ID them, it'll give some distinction. however, if a new species without such a fingerprint is involved, it could give rise to issues. Molecular marker methods are useful mind you, but they have trade offs for each method.

They may or may not answer the question posed.
I know Dan Potter here and Dr. Doyle are good people to talk to, I also knew the Soltis' from UF and they are some of the top authorities on such methods for phylogenyies in the world.

We have had a great number of folks coming through these last 1-2 years giving seminars on aquatics and evolution. Mosses included.

It's a good time to be involved in these projects.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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Thanks for the advice, Tom. But I'm afraid I know little about the technical details. I have no idea what's AFLP and how one goes about extracting the DNA fingerprint of a plant.

I'm just concerned about helping a young girl with her master's thesis. If you have any of the mosses on her list, please send a sample to me. In return, I will try and send you something special.

Loh K L
 

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I have access to many mosses, many if not most of which, are not on that list.
She may find some of these useful:

For Java fern:
http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?req....1639/0007-2745(2002)105[0310:POTPBO]2.0.CO;2

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e683872870837695/

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/cjb/2006/00000084/00000003/art00017

http://www.biology.duke.edu/bryology/reprints/Taxon2005_Shaw_MossDiversPattern.pdf

It seems to me that you need more than just AFLP's to get at most questions these days. You need all the support and confirmation you can muster. Even then, there's plenty of issues, she may find issues with resolving the bootstrap values between groups using ML and MP methods.

You folks should have plenty of these species of moss locally in SG.
Are they no longer available?

Or are you trying to look for variation across the hobby?
Most of these came out of SG, so it's the best place look most likely.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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yeah, someone from SG asking for moss samples is like someone from NYC asking for pizza slices. besides, what use would the DNA of moss be to anyone in this hobby. even with a hand magnifier I still can't tell Taiwan and Xmas moss apart :tongue: My guess is half the different mosses out there are really the same moss, they simply grew different in that sellers tanks, so now he decides to call it Spymoss :hihi:
 

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It can show the evolutionary relationships of various species of aquatic mosses, it can show new populations, new species even.

Several folks have done some good work on taxonomy, which of course relates specifically to this hobby.

This project is addressing the DNA and I'd assume, the morpological characters as well to do this.

Individually these methods are not nearly as powerful, and choosing which genes to focus on, and how you construct things is a bit more of an art than a neophyte might assume.

Some might argue that a name is useless in it's entirity, as long as we know what we are talking about. Why even name things then?
Java moss was not even the correct name prior.
The various types of moss have been identified to the species level. This is the next step in that process. Maybe you do not think that's worthwhile to the hobby, but I most certainly do.

It removes a lot of ambiguity.
And you will know pretty well what species of moss you actually have if you send in some.

I'm still not clear about the reasons for the mailing to SG.
Should have plenty of material there or nearby although I support any effort to help from hobbyists abroad.

Should be interesting to see the study.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm still not clear about the reasons for the mailing to SG.
Tom, I need a lot of help with 2 mosses in particular - Erect and Christmas Moss. The former has all but turned brown and died in everyone's tank in Singapore. I believe the same did not occur in the tanks of the hobbyists who live in the USA. It could be your water is colder but I really don't know the reasons why.

Christmas Moss is indistinguisable from Singapore Moss. Not even a seasoned hobbyist can tell the difference. I can't, not with the naked eye. The only way to be sure is to look at the cells under a microscope. In Singapore where mosses are plentiful, Christmas and Singapore Moss have become hopelessly mixed-up in most tanks. But I think there's a fairly good chance that with USA hobbyists, they have only either Christmas or Singapore.

I probably can get enough samples of Weeping, Java and Singapore mosses from Singaporean tanks alone but I wouldn't mind a bit of help from fellow-hobbyists elsewhere.

Loh K L
 

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Ho ho ho, I got Xmas moss out my ears............
I can send you plenty of material, we cannot get rid of the stuff.
Erect is my favorite moss, but it's in short supply in these parts.

I wonder why folks have troubles with the moss like this, it can get god awful, hot in CA here as well, but I've not had issues with it.

I have a red liverwort, but I do not think it will make the trip, it's a weed like Xmas moss and Riccia, does not pearl as much though. More a burgundy color.

I'll add some to see if it might make it(it is some indonesian type).
I'll try and ship Monday for you.

I know several folks that have some erect, but not easy to get a hold of them. I like the look of it and some of the other species. The problem with the mosses, at least for me, is that they are very weedy.
I have to use low light or else they just go nuts.

My tank temps are often warm in the summer, about 28-34C.

But like adding more light, the growth rates also increase.
Nutrients/CO2 need to be scaled up as well.
CO2 in particular with higher heat.

Like hot water steaming, it holds less gas and mosses, at least as far as anyone knows, cannot use bicarbonate, so it has to come from CO2.

Seems odd that everyone's moss all died off.
Temp does a few things to plants, but I've seen a lot of species growing at 40C, generally not moss though. I have some Xmas moss out in a super hard water 20% full sun bin with continuous flow and the temps can reach in the mid 30's C. It sometimes might get some Spirogyra, but otherwise does well with some 2-3x a week water column dosing.
Odd that folks had the mass die off though.

PM me the address to ship to.
Thanks

Tom Barr
 

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Christmas Moss. The former has all but turned brown and died in everyone's tank in Singapore. I believe the same did not occur in the tanks of the hobbyists who live in the USA. It could be your water is colder but I really don't know the reasons why.
if this is any help to you: the only time healthy Xmas went brown and died on me is when I dosed it with too much of Seachem's Flourish Excel. The hottest my tank water gets is 80.5°F or 27°C.
 

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I don't think it's the temperature too, Tom but you know how it is. Over here in Singapore, we tend to blame the high temps for everything that goes wrong in our tanks :smile:

Seriously, I think it's some kind of disease that is causing the Erect Moss here to turn brown and die. The browning invariably starts at the bottom of the stems and once it starts, there's no stopping it. I've seen whole bunches of very healthy Erect Moss turning brown, practically overnight.

Anyway, here's my mailing address:

Loh Kwek Leong
Block 104 Towner Road
#08-324
Singapore 322104

I don't need a lot of each moss. Just what would fit into a small plastic bag will be enough. If you like to find out more, please click on my post at killies.com:

http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3565

I've uploaded several pictures to that post, one of which shows the amount of moss Chishio needs. Another picture shows Chishio herself working at the lab.

Loh K L
 
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