Dirt and sand substrate

6651 Views 27 Replies 13 Participants Last post by altiuscitius, Jul 21, 2012

abraham3660

Discussion Starter · Jul 16, 2012

I am setting up a new 20 gallon tall, low tech, tank. I want to try to use dirt. Are there any cons with using dirt? I will be using miracle grow with the little white beads, but I will he removing these. I will be topping it with play sand. How much of each substrate should I use? Should I thoroughly rinse the miracle grow? Anything else I need to know before having a dirted tank?

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

reynaldo194

· #2 · Jul 16, 2012

friend, Michigan

Hi, my naime is rey. Becarful that soil will have some fertiliser that may harm your fish and will give alergy to the tank. The most best way and thisis my opinium is to tri some clay substrate with some iron and minerals. I have a 10gl tank that I set up a long time and is full of lived plants and goupys, let me no if you need some plants; I can shre.

abraham3660

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jul 17, 2012

This is the soil I want to use. Will this be ok if I remove all the white beads? Here is the ingredient list:

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DrGonzo

· #4 · Jul 17, 2012

I would maybe recommend unfertilized top soil, really really cheap at like $1.50 for 40lbs, or a couple bags of miracle gro organic potting mix without the white bits. No rinsing, just a good sifting to get rid of larger particles. 3/4"-1" of dirt to maybe 2-3" of sand, I did 1":1" in a 6 gallon and my crypts would've probably liked a deeper substrate.

Studman0143

· #5 · Jul 17, 2012

I have organic miracle-gro below my substrate. You'd be just fine using it. Be warned it has a lot of wood chips in it that will float so if you uncover it in the planting process or when adding water/moving things around, those wood pieces could float up and cause a headache. Other than that it would great.

altiuscitius

· #6 · Jul 17, 2012

Perlite is bad because it will float up.
The wetting agents are bad. I believe they are toxic to fish, but I could be wrong. Most people in the reading Ive done say not to use any soil with a wetting agent.
The fertilizers are bad because they will leach out right away and lead to algae blooms or worse.

Im pretty sure from the ingredients in your pic, that you have the "miracle gro potting mix" in the green bag. This is not what you want. You want the "miracle grow ORGANIC potting mix" in the orange bag. That is the one diana walstad recommends in her book, that is the one most people use in my extensive reading on this subject.

kamikazi

· #7 · Jul 17, 2012

altiuscitius said:
Perlite is bad because it will float up.
The wetting agents are bad. I believe they are toxic to fish, but I could be wrong. Most people in the reading Ive done say not to use any soil with a wetting agent.
The fertilizers are bad because they will leach out right away and lead to algae blooms or worse.

Im pretty sure from the ingredients in your pic, that you have the "miracle gro potting mix" in the green bag. This is not what you want. You want the "miracle grow ORGANIC potting mix" in the orange bag. That is the one diana walstad recommends in her book, that is the one most people use in my extensive reading on this subject.

I can't speak to the first part of this post, but the last paragraph is correct.

abraham3660

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jul 17, 2012

Studman0143 said:
I have organic miracle-gro below my substrate. You'd be just fine using it. Be warned it has a lot of wood chips in it that will float so if you uncover it in the planting process or when adding water/moving things around, those wood pieces could float up and cause a headache. Other than that it would great.

Does the dirt really benefit the plants? I'm curious, because I was originally just going to use play sand. I went and looked at ferts yesterday and I didn't realize how expensive they were. If I used dirt would I still have to use ferts?

Wasserpest

· #9 · Jul 17, 2012

The soil will provide nutrients to root-feeding plants for a while. For a low light tank, you would not need to add fertilizer.

kamikazi

· #10 · Jul 17, 2012

abraham3660 said:
Does the dirt really benefit the plants? I'm curious, because I was originally just going to use play sand. I went and looked at ferts yesterday and I didn't realize how expensive they were. If I used dirt would I still have to use ferts?

What ferts were you looking at?

The organic matter in the soil, nitrogen, phosphates is what really helps the plants grow.

This is the ingredients of Miracle Gro Organic Choice Potting mix

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abraham3660

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jul 17, 2012

Would this one be ok?
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12664183

kamikazi

· #12 · Jul 17, 2012

abraham3660 said:
Would this one be ok?
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12664183

Looks ok except for the perlite. It also doesn't mention having nitrogen or phosphate, not sure if that will make a huge difference though.

DogFish

· #13 · Jul 17, 2012

DrGonzo said:
I would maybe recommend unfertilized top soil, really really cheap at like $1.50 for 40lbs, or a couple bags of miracle gro organic potting mix without the white bits. No rinsing, just a good sifting to get rid of larger particles. 3/4"-1" of dirt to maybe 2-3" of sand, I did 1":1" in a 6 gallon and my crypts would've probably liked a deeper substrate.

roud:

roud:

40#s @ $1.17 - HomeDepot, unless you catch the sale price 87cents !!!

:icon_mrgr

abraham3660

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jul 17, 2012

I keep reading horror stories from people who use dirt and I'm getting kind of worried. I'm worried about how messy it is and water quality. Any tips or suggestions?

kamikazi

· #15 · Jul 18, 2012

abraham3660 said:
I keep reading horror stories from people who use dirt and I'm getting kind of worried. I'm worried about how messy it is and water quality. Any tips or suggestions?

- plant heavy from the get go and have a really good idea of where you want all your plants and hardscape to go so you dont have to move things around a bunch after you get it all set up and filled.

- plant your larger rooted plants before you cap the dirt, then pull them up slightly to the right depth in the substrate. use forceps to plant smaller rooted plants once the cap is down.

- use 1 to 1.5 inches of soil with 1.5 inch of cap (sand, pea gravel what not)

- fill the tank up with a bowl or cup sitting on top of a plate and pour water into the cup.

Those are the biggies that come to mind.

Diana

· #16 · Jul 18, 2012

If you want a sand cap use pool filter sand, not play sand. Play sand has too many fines.

One of the benefits of soil (including potting soil) over sand is that the soil will hold the fertilizers in a way that plants can get them. This is called cationic exchange capacity. This is very good.
It is not important if a soil comes pre-loaded with fertilizer. You will still need to add fertilizer as the plants remove it. But soils that hold onto whatever fertilizer you add (from fish food, tablets or bottled fertilizer) will even out the supply so the plants always have something available.

DogFish

· #17 · Jul 18, 2012

abraham3660 said:
I keep reading horror stories from people who use dirt and I'm getting kind of worried. I'm worried about how messy it is and water quality. Any tips or suggestions?

Go back and read those tales of woe and start seeing the pattern of mistakes and misunderstandings.

If a tank is not in balance i.e. Nutrients, Plants, Filtration, Bio-load one will have problems if they use the most expensive Japanese substrate or plan old dirt.

In these threads people focus too much on the parts and not enough on the complete system.

Topsoil, Potting soil, or Yard dirt & Dog Poop doesn't matter IF you have correct filtration levels using established media, enough plants, light bio load and proper lighting and don't sabotage the effort with unnecessary frets.

abraham3660

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jul 18, 2012

What if my only option is play sand? Can I not use soil?

kamikazi

· #19 · Jul 18, 2012

I got a bag of pfs at home depot or lowes for something like 5-6 dollars. You could use other types of sand that don't compact as much. I know some people use blasting sand, not sure how that does compaction wise though.

You could also cap with something other than sand. Like small grain pea gravel.

abraham3660

Discussion Starter · #20 · Jul 18, 2012

It's just that I just bought the play sand, and don't want to Make the long trip back to the hardware store. Will capping the dirt with play sand cause problems?

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