Deficiencies? or What

2979 Views 17 Replies 3 Participants Last post by latchdan, Nov 11, 2016

latchdan

Discussion Starter · Oct 27, 2016

I'm having some weird growth on Nymphoides hydrophylla looks like the leaves are curling in on the new growth. Possible Mg or K deficiencies?
I'm getting necrosis on my frogbit that looks like it could also be K but I seem to dose a lot of potassium so I'm not sure.
This is my dosing schedule
Day 1- Water change, 50% water. 1/4 teaspoon potassium Nitrate, 1/16 teaspoon mono potassium phosphate, 1/4 teaspoon potassium sulfate, 3ml Seachem Iron.
Day2. 3ml Seachem Flourish Comp
Day 3 1/8 teaspoon potassium nitrate. 1/32 teaspoon mono potassium phosphate 1/4 teaspoon potassium sulfate.
Day 4 3ml Seachem Flourish Comp
Day 5 1/8 teaspoon potassium nitrate. 1/32 teaspoon mono potassium phosphate 1/4 teaspoon potassium sulfate.
Day 6 3ml Seachem Flourish Comp
Day 7 nothing.
Tank is 40B high light and C02 injection 7hr photo period.

Do do have some eptsom salt if mg dosing would help. Although, I'm not sure how much to add.
kh 5, gh 6, my water is 50% tap and 50% RO.

Or, is this just normal growth, its kinda bright so I"m not sure if its the best picture to look at.

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Seattle_Aquarist

· #2 · Oct 27, 2016

Hi latchdan,

Are you referring to the ruffled leaves, which are normal, or is there something else in the picture I am missing?

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Solcielo lawrencia

· #3 · Oct 27, 2016

Need better pictures. If it's too bright, overexposed, switch to manual mode and reduce the exposure.

Also, pics of the other plants can help confirm deficiencies.

It's prolly and zinc or boron deficiency. I'd bet itz Zn. Use Flourish Trace in place of Flourish and observe

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #4 · Oct 27, 2016

Its the top most leaf it just looks crinkled a little more. I'll try and get a better picture my camera sucks.

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 27, 2016

2

Solcielo lawrencia said:
Need better pictures. If it's too bright, overexposed, switch to manual mode and reduce the exposure.

Also, pics of the other plants can help confirm deficiencies.

It's prolly and zinc or boron deficiency. I'd bet itz Zn. Use Flourish Trace in place of Flourish and observe

I just recently changed to flourish comp from csm+b only did 1 or 2 does with flourish. I am just using it because I had an extra bottle around and my mixture of csm+b used up. My mixture was 26g csm+b and 500ml water dosed at 3ml.

Here are a couple more pics. My camera is ancient and these are the best I can get with my limited knowledge of photography. looking at the top most leaf that looks crinkled around the edges.

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Solcielo lawrencia

· #6 · Oct 27, 2016

Yeah, that's a deficiency (or an induced deficiency if dosing too much phosphate) but not of K or Mg. It's likely Zn. It should be accompanied with some chlorosis and stunting/slow growth. CSM has too low Zn and dosing too little can lead to induced deficiencies but dosing more can temporarily alleviate it, too, at the expense of tox issues. So I recommend using Flourish Trace since it contains much higher levels of Zn that isn't present in Flourish. I think they split the traces just to make more sales.

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 27, 2016

Is there a cheaper alternative to seachem trace that stuff if i remember is weak, unless since I'm dosing comp i wouldnt need as much?

Seattle_Aquarist

· #8 · Oct 28, 2016

Hi latchdan,

Thank you for a much better picture! I believe that Solcielo lawrencia is correct in that you do have a deficiency.....most likely calcium.

I have grown that species for several years, it is a great plant in both larger and smaller tanks. Occasionally I will get a leaf similar to the one in the picture. Does it seem 'thicker' than an normal leaf and maybe the leaf is not as soft or flexible? When I have had it occur it is always a new leaf and it occurs as the leaf is 'unfolding'. When it first happened several years ago I didn't know what was causing it. I re-checked my water parameters and my dosing levels and researched and problem. What I found was:

Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding.....ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... calcium deficiency

I checked my water parameters and my dGH was down to about 2.0 (my water comes out of the tap and about dGH=1.0-2.0). I hadn't been dosing my GH Booster as conscientiously as I should. I increased my dGH slightly by adding GH booster which contains both calcium and magnesium and the problem disappeared.

As for the problem with the floaters it also seems worse on newer leaves. See if the problem improves when you start dosing GH Booster.

45 gallon tall (24" high) with Nymphoides hydrilla (sp 'Taiwan')

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latchdan

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 28, 2016

Seattle_Aquarist said:
Hi latchdan,

Thank you for a much better picture! I believe that Solcielo lawrencia is correct in that you do have a deficiency.....most likely calcium.

I have grown that species for several years, it is a great plant in both larger and smaller tanks. Occasionally I will get a leaf similar to the one in the picture. Does it seem 'thicker' than an normal leaf and maybe the leaf is not as soft or flexible? When I have had it occur it is always a new leaf and it occurs as the leaf is 'unfolding'. When it first happened several years ago I didn't know what was causing it. I re-checked my water parameters and my dosing levels and researched and problem. What I found was:

I checked my water parameters and my dGH was down to about 2.0 (my water comes out of the tap and about dGH=1.0-2.0). I hadn't been dosing my GH Booster as conscientiously as I should. I increased my dGH slightly by adding GH booster which contains both calcium and magnesium and the problem disappeared.

As for the problem with the floaters it also seems worse on newer leaves. See if the problem improves when you start dosing GH Booster.

45 gallon tall (24" high) with Nymphoides hydrilla (sp 'Taiwan')

I have some seachem equalibrium i can use. Like i said i use ro with tap. My tap is 10 dgh.

This plant is brand new only 2 weeks old. If that matters. The frogbit is old.

Bump: How much should i try equilibrium

Solcielo lawrencia

· #10 · Oct 28, 2016

Not a Ca deficiency.

Seattle_Aquarist

· #11 · Oct 28, 2016

latchdan said:
I have some seachem equalibrium i can use. Like i said i use ro with tap. My tap is 10 dgh.

This plant is brand new only 2 weeks old. If that matters. The frogbit is old.

Bump: How much should i try equilibrium

Hi latchdan,

I would add sufficient to raise the tank 2.0 dGH; that is what worked for me.

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #12 · Oct 28, 2016

Solcielo lawrencia said:
Yeah, that's a deficiency (or an induced deficiency if dosing too much phosphate) but not of K or Mg. It's likely Zn. It should be accompanied with some chlorosis and stunting/slow growth. CSM has too low Zn and dosing too little can lead to induced deficiencies but dosing more can temporarily alleviate it, too, at the expense of tox issues. So I recommend using Flourish Trace since it contains much higher levels of Zn that isn't present in Flourish. I think they split the traces just to make more sales.

I'm looking into ordering some Seachem Trace. I'm looking what is in Trace and there are several minerals that are not in it that are in CSM+B and Flourish comp.
Like no Iron and Magnesium
Would it be okay to dose 5ml (half recommendation Zn= 0.006976) of Trace in addition to 3ml of comp/csm+b? to get the iron levels as well as other minerals like mg?

It also appears that CSM+B has more Zn then Flourish comp Zn 0.004 (CSM+B) Zn 0.00017 (F. Comp) per dose (3ml)
Might switch back to CSM+B and use the comp for my shrimp tank not sure yet. Thoughts?

Solcielo lawrencia

· #13 · Oct 28, 2016

Trace was not designed to be comprehensive, hence needing to buy two products instead of one. I won't comment on CSM as I'm currently experimenting on altering the ratios to learn what exactly is wrong with it. But so far, amending certain nutrients seem to have improved plant growth.

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #14 · Nov 10, 2016

2

Solcielo lawrencia said:
Trace was not designed to be comprehensive, hence needing to buy two products instead of one. I won't comment on CSM as I'm currently experimenting on altering the ratios to learn what exactly is wrong with it. But so far, amending certain nutrients seem to have improved plant growth.

I've just recieved some flourish trace, I was curious if I should dose the trace the same day as my other micros. On the bottle it says alternating days of if using Flourish Comp.
It doesn't have Iron in it so I could assume I could use it on days with macro ferts?

Or should I dose everyday in a lower amount? say 3ml every day (dosing on a 40b) or should I dose more on micro/macro days bottle says 10ml per 40 gallons.

Since I started this thread I doubled my micro to help with this defecienciy and it doesn't seem to help at all.

Here is a picture of my clovers (forgot real name)

I've also started increasing my gh, instead of using a GH booster I just use less RO in my RO/tap mixture to see if that would help which it hasn't yet.

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Seattle_Aquarist

· #15 · Nov 11, 2016

Hi latchdan,

Are you now referring to the holes in the leaves of your Hydrocotyle tripartita? Has the origial problem with the leaves of your Nymphoides been resolved? The holes could be either damage be snail or fish or it could be a potassium deficiency...Hydrocotyle has fairly soft leaves.

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #16 · Nov 11, 2016

Seattle_Aquarist said:
Hi latchdan,

Are you now referring to the holes in the leaves of your Hydrocotyle tripartita? Has the origial problem with the leaves of your Nymphoides been resolved? The holes could be either damage be snail or fish or it could be a potassium deficiency...Hydrocotyle has fairly soft leaves.

Yes the holes, no original problem still there but just got seachem trace.
I'm dosing 1/4 teaspoon potassium sulfate every other day. Can't believe it's still deficient.

Seattle_Aquarist

· #17 · Nov 11, 2016

Hi latchdan,

First the original problem, I believe I recommeded Equilibrium...contains calcium, magnesium, and potassium. None on thse are in seachen Trace, and unless you know those nutrients are in you tap water then adding more tap water will not necessarily resolve the issue. I said the problem could be potassium or fauna.....anyone in you tank like 'salads'?

latchdan

Discussion Starter · #18 · Nov 11, 2016

Fauna
Amano shrimp
Oto cat
Harelquin rasbora
Pearl gourami
Bladder snails

A while back someone looked up tap and said mine had plenty of mg and ca.n

My gh booster is in storage so I don't wanna look for it lol.

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