[PiDo]

Hi,
OK! My setup is:
10 US gal tank
Substrate is 7.7 ltr Flourite Black Sand
Plants: Marsilea crenata, Pogostemon erectus, Rotala Robustus Mini, Rotala rotundifolia from ABC Plants
25W water heater
Filter is Fluval 207 with 3 baskets full of lava stones
Water temperature maintained at +/- 25.6 C
Every morning I test water for Ph Ammonia, Nitrite, nitrate
Lightihg is 378 LED and framed it at 12 inches from the tank top

On day 8 I started adding ammonia to about 4 ppm (hard to estimate with the Freshwater Master Test Kit)
Since then ammonia level is 0 ppm after 4 hours, nitrite got UP to 5+ ppm and seems to get down a little, nitrate went to 15 ppm and dropped to 0 ppm on day 17 and is up to 10 ppm on day 21 (today).
Am I on the right track, I am afraid that situation won't allow bacteria to settle in since they are starving 20 hours every 24.
Should I add some shrimp food to somewhat stabilize ammonia level?

 

[rdek]

Hi there,

Cycling a planted tank is not necessary. All you need to focus on is the health and growth of plants. Depending on how they were cultivated prior to purchase (emersed most likely or submersed), your plants need to adapt first. This takes about 4 to 6 weeks. The ammonia oxidising micro-organisms, you are trying to propagate by adding ammonia, colonise your tank in the meantime. You don't need to do anything for this to happen. Where there is life, there is death. Some plant matter will leach ammonia.

There are other ways to initiate, but the micro-organisms that will ultimately dominate with regards to ammonia conversion, are very likely not the same species in the start-up phase. Besides, the ammonia you are adding, are also taken in by plants.

Have a little faith in nature. Sit back, relax and focus on healthy plant growth. That's all.

 

[Le duke]

Hi there,

Cycling a planted tank is not necessary. All you need to focus on is the health and growth of plants. Depending on how they were cultivated prior to purchase (emersed most likely or submersed), your plants need to adapt first. This takes about 4 to 6 weeks. The ammonia oxidising micro-organisms colonise the tank in the meantime. You don't need to do anything for this to happen. There are ways to initiate, but the micro-organisms that will ultimately dominate with regards to ammonia conversion, are very likely not the same species in the start-up phase.

So sit back, relax and focus on healthy plant growth. That's all.

If I dose 4ppm ammonia into an aquarium set up this way, do you believe that there will be 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite in it 24hrs later?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Johntheskier]

I think that the OP is cycling a planted SHRIMP tank. So cycling is necessary.

I would not add shrimp food because it is less predictable as an ammonia source. Keep dosing liquid ammonia but maybe only dose to 2PPM. 4 PPM ammonia might be a little harsh on the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate.

If you are dosing liquid ammonia every 24 hours the bacteria won't starve.

 

[rdek]

Why dose 4 ppm in the first place? It has no ground.

For instance, a little school of tetra's weigh 20 grams in total, require 2% of feed a day, which converts to about 0.014 gram ammonia excretion a day. Depending on the pH, most will be in the NH4 form, so won't interfere with NH3 diffusion. Next, part will be absorbed by plants. It won't be a lot as a lot of plant will likely extract minerals stored first, as they are currently adapting. The other part of the 0.014 grams will be oxidised by microbes. I think 0.2 g / m2 / day is a conservative estimate, but even the glass panes offer sufficient space for the biofilm to develop and start converting.

 

[somewhatshocked]

Am I on the right track

Yes, you are.

Should I add some shrimp food to somewhat stabilize ammonia level?

No. Just keep dosing ammonia. You're doing things the right way.

Cycling a planted tank is not necessary.

It's necessary - especially for sensitive invertebrates like shrimp.

There are other ways to initiate, but the micro-organisms that will ultimately dominate with regards to ammonia conversion, are very likely not the same species in the start-up phase.

The nitrifying bacteria are the same species in the start-up phase and months down the road.

4 PPM ammonia might be a little harsh on the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate.

Nah, it'll be fine. I routinely dose 5-6PPM.

Why dose 4 ppm in the first place? It has no ground.

Yes, it does have ground. Shrimp can't handle ammonia or nitrite at all. So a tank has to have a fully-established cycle prior to adding them to a tank.

 

[rdek]

I think the papers on ammonia oxidisers the last couple of 4 years are showing a different picture. The exact microbe species that colonise your tank are dependent on oxygen gradients (hence different in a canister than in the rhizosphere), KH/pH levels, ammonia concentrations (hence, 4ppm doesn't make sense unless you intend to keep an Oscar in a 5 gallon tank ) and....time. Fishkeepers that adhere to a dosing and testing cycling process always measure nitrites during the startup phase. But after a while micro-organisms that convert ammonia directly to nitrates become the dominant species.

"So a tank has to have a fully-established cycle prior to adding them to a tank."

A cycle never ends. Plants are an essential part in the N cycle. Not just on earth but in a planted tank too. Hence, once your planted tankshows growth, the little ammonia excreted by shrimp is taken up.

 

[somewhatshocked]

I think the papers on ammonia oxidisers the last couple of 4 years are showing a different picture. The exact microbe species that colonise your tank are dependent on oxygen gradients (hence different in a canister than in the rhizosphere), KH/pH levels, ammonia concentrations (hence, 4ppm doesn't make sense unless you intend to keep an Oscar in a 5 gallon tank ) and....time. Fishkeepers that adhere to a dosing and testing cycling procedure always measure nitrites during the startup phase. But after a while micro-organisms that convert ammonia directly to nitrates become the dominant species.

"So a tank has to have a fully-established cycle prior to adding them to a tank."

A cycle never ends. Plants are an essential part in the N cycle. Not just on earth but in a planted tank too. Hence, once the plants in your tank show growth, the little ammonia excreted by shrimp is taken up. And again, most is very most likely in NH4 form.

Pro-tip: trollish behavior is a quick way to find yourself unable to respond in a thread. As you are now.

Obviously, I'm aware that a cycle never ends. Hence me mentioning "fully-established cycle" - meaning the cycle is established and ongoing. You're just trying to play semantics at this point. Because you've been repeatedly advised that OP is cycling a shrimp tank and you're choosing to continue trying to muddy the water.

The same bacterial species exist in the beginning as they do months down the road. Particularly in a tank where one focuses on stability and parameters don't shift. Which would be the case in a shrimp tank filled with sensitive invertebrates. Pull whatever study you want to use for whatever inane argument you're attempting to make. Then look at the literally tens of thousands of shrimp tanks here on the forum.

Come on, people. Don't intentionally try to confuse newcomers to the hobby or those trying to learn. Meet people where they are.

Update - Thought everyone may get a kick out of the PM this user sent me. They "locked" it thinking an admin couldn't respond, so that's fun. Here:

Dear friend,

It's OK to downgrade science by calling it semantics and muddy waters, arguing with cheap fallacies ("tens of thousands of shrimp tanks can't be wrong") and double standards yourself (bullying you say?). Then appealing to people's morals by "helping" someone who kept tanks in the 70s, when cycling wasn't even applied (pre-supplier era you know, great times....) and fish and inverts did just fine in planted tanks.

Ammonia poisoning hardly occurs in our hobby, but always gets blamed, especially outside Europe and Asia, because it is one of the very few things we measure thanks to people like yourself.

So continue to "like" everyone who agrees with your supplier-based views ("stability is important".... ever conducted serious measurements in the wild? oh no, wait, the genetics have changed by breeding practices of course -silly me).

So ban me like the rest of the people that had a bigger brain than yours. Can't be a short line.

Cheers!

Yeah... ammonia totally never harms sensitive invertebrates. Never happens.

Y'all... some people.

 

[Le duke]

I think the papers on ammonia oxidisers the last couple of 4 years are showing a different picture. The exact microbe species that colonise your tank are dependent on oxygen gradients (hence different in a canister than in the rhizosphere), KH/pH levels, ammonia concentrations (hence, 4ppm doesn't make sense unless you intend to keep an Oscar in a 5 gallon tank ) and....time. Fishkeepers that adhere to a dosing and testing cycling procedure always measure nitrites during the startup phase. But after a while micro-organisms that convert ammonia directly to nitrates become the dominant species.

"So a tank has to have a fully-established cycle prior to adding them to a tank."

A cycle never ends. Plants are an essential part in the N cycle. Not just on earth but in a planted tank too. Hence, once the plants in your tank show growth, the little ammonia excreted by shrimp is taken up.

Let's take this a step further:

I have a brand new, still in box, 143.8g WaterBox 6025 in my garage. I'll be taking the plants and stock from my current 75g, and adding to both flora and fauna.

Are you of the opinion that I can take the ~45 loaches, tetras and corydoras that I currently own, double the numbers of corydoras and tetras, and plop them in the 6025 after a couple of weeks in a near-zero ammonia environment in the new 6025, and the fish won't suffer any consequences?

Bacteria don't multiple as readily in resource scarcity; they aren't going to fully populate a tank without adequate resources, namely, ammonia. Furthermore, they aren't going to populate a tank in great enough numbers to support a massive change in bioload.

 

[PiDo]

TO ALL

Have a little faith in nature. Sit back, relax and focus on healthy plant growth. That's all.
OK, I will

If I dose 4ppm ammonia into an aquarium set up this way, do you believe that there will be 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite in it 24hrs later?
Did I say 24hrs with 0ppm ammonia & nitrite? I don't think so!
I said 4hrs 0 ppm ammonia & nitrite raising

4 PPM ammonia might be a little harsh on the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate.
OK, I will keep it at 2 or 3
If you are dosing liquid ammonia every 24 hours the bacteria won't starve.
Thanks

A shrimp tank you say? Wait for plant growth, and your tank is ready for shrimp.
What do you mean by "Wait for plant growth" ? They were 1/2 inch when I planted them, so they are showing growth.
Worked for me in the last 30 years WOW! 40 years ago I had a similar setup installed in 2 days.
After a few years the water celery plants had flowers and was only 30 inches tall because I had to trim them from the fluorescents lamps

somewhatshocked on post 6
Thanks for all the info

POSTS 7, 8 & 9 I am glad to see that this forum is like all the others I have participate in the last 35 - 40 years

Anyways THANK YOU ALL for the info

 

[somewhatshocked]

Closing this thread because my small brain just can't handle it.

Or, really, because a particular user has repeatedly edited their posts in attempt to change what they originally said. The posts have been reverted to their original form.

Edit: thread's reopened. Guess that user got into some other problems and another admin gave them the boot. (wasn't me for once!)

 

[PiDo]

Thanks for re-opening the thread
After 31 days with water, 22 days with plants & 16 days adding ammonia the nitrite is at 0 ppm: tank IS cycled.

 

[evil8]

After 31 days with water, 22 days with plants & 16 days adding ammonia the nitrite is at 0 ppm: tank IS cycled.

Awesome! Glad to hear it.

 

[somewhatshocked]

Thanks for re-opening the thread
After 31 days with water, 22 days with plants & 16 days adding ammonia the nitrite is at 0 ppm: tank IS cycled.

That's awesome news.

Have you started a tank journal yet? I'd love to follow along as your tank grows and changes.

 

[PiDo]

That's awesome news.

Have you started a tank journal yet? I'd love to follow along as your tank grows and changes.

I have a log & I take a photo every day since I planted the tank. I didn't know about the Journals Forum. I will gladly start one after studying the forum concept

 

[somewhatshocked]

I have a log & I take a photo every day since I planted the tank. I didn't know about the Journals Forum. I will gladly start one after studying the forum concept

It's a great way to track things for yourself, share details that don't quite fit in other areas and to keep regular notes.

That section is also great for scrolling and enjoying photos. Probably my favorite section of the forum and I learn something new there every day from new and experienced hobbyists alike. Definitely check it out when you get the chance - even if you don't start a tank journal.

 

[PiDo]

It's a great way to track things for yourself, share details that don't quite fit in other areas and to keep regular notes.

That section is also great for scrolling and enjoying photos. Probably my favorite section of the forum and I learn something new there every day from new and experienced hobbyists alike. Definitely check it out when you get the chance - even if you don't start a tank journal.

PiDo's 10G Journal started on Decembre 28/2022

 

[kfish]

Filter is Fluval 207 with 3 baskets full of lava stones


That's a big filter for a 10g shrimp tank. I use it on a 29g with fish and have to throttle it down 50%.

 

[PiDo]

Filter is Fluval 207 with 3 baskets full of lava stones


That's a big filter for a 10g shrimp tank. I use it on a 29g with fish and have to throttle it down 50%.

I know, but it was the smallest I could find. I would have bought the 107.
The 207 has it's advantage, it can be throttled to almost 0 flow, longer period between maintenance and a big bacteria colony to absorb a lot of nitrite

 

[Dr. Manhattan]

have a brand new, still in box, 143.8g WaterBox 6025 in my garage. I'll be taking the plants and stock from my current 75g, and adding to both flora and fauna

A 143 gallon ! I hope they'll be a build thread with photos when you get it going. 👍